What a powerful interview. I expect I'll work to memorize this quote.
“It is a fake crown that we wear. My message would be to take off the fake crown. It will cost you more to keep it than to let it go. It is not real. It is just a marker of your programming. You will be happier and freer without it. You will see all of humanity. You will find your true self.”
I plan to see if I can find out what happened to August Landmesser.
Didn't Dr. King understand the caste comparison after his visit to India?
Have you read Ibram Kendi's book "How to be Antiracist" I feel he speaks to some of the points you are bringing up which could be considered assimilation?
It never ceases to amaze me how extensively (some would say expensively) educated people in prominent position of power (intellectually if not otherwise), can be so under-informed. In this instance Dr. Wilkerson - much lionised for her ability to think differently, resorting to the same tired trope about American civil war and comparing the vanquished with the vanquished Germans of the post-World War era. Anyone who goes beyond movie-museum-school book propaganda would know that American civil war wasn't about slavery as much as North's resentment of South moving into newer territories with an unfair labour advantage via its slave population. Meanwhile South's gripe was about being kept out (or deprived the spoils of ethnic cleansing, to use a more accurate description) as America expanded westwards. Like American democracy happily partnering with brutal dictators from Mabuto to Pinochet to King Saud, the issue was not about tyranny or injustice but interests being well met. Unmet interests can lead not just to civil wars, but blockades and bombings as unfriendly dictators in Cuba or Syria know too well. Coming to Germans, Dr. Wilkerson is again unable to go past the dominant narratives (or propaganda, if all the facts were laid on the table). For starters, Third Reich wasn't an unprecedented and dangerous anomaly that engulfed Germany and threatened rest of the world. It was a continuum of the oldest of European traditions well embodied by say the First Reich - the glorious Roman Empire with far widespread territorial aggression, genocides and enslavement that Hitler could only dream of. Third Reich was an anomaly in only that it was deploying fruits of industrial revolution unavailable to its brutal predecessors (thanks in no small measure to the likes of Ford and IBM). The other difference was that unlike legends like Ceaser / Alexander the Great worldwide, Leopold in Congo or Columbus and other Spaniards in America, the Fuhrer chose to practise territorial grabbing and genocide in Europe and not in distant Africa, Asia or America. German grievance before, during and post-Hitler was therefore less about "how could we?" and more about "why only us?" More so when Hitler's ally imperial Japan that had engaged in similar atrocities across Asia, had got a free pass. Far from being tried for war crimes, it's Emperor was eulogised by Western leaders; the shrines of his men (some of them mass rapists and cannibals) get prominent yearly visit by the Japanese prime minister till this day. That millions of Germans were murdered post-Hitler, many without formality of even Kangaroo courts or the fact that liberators from both the Red Army and America's golden generation raped almost every single female in Berlin after the fall, could not have helped matters. It is indeed strange or rather disturbing that Dr. Wilkerson - a female and a person of colour with all the academic resources at her disposal could see the falsehood and racism that marked her study area i.e. Nazi era but could not spot the falsehood and racism that marks the historiography dealing with Nazism or there is little to compare between the two scenarios.
Thank you for bringing some other pieces of the picture together here; agreed on very many points. But I think that there are perhaps valid elements of explanation in both. Elements of caste and also in those factors that you describe. The patterns, all manifestations of dominant group versus "weaker" groups - us versus them - play out throughout the horror show of human history. It takes different forms given the historical and cultural contexts. I think that the whole thing grows out of an intersection of a number of human tendencies, and all share common etiological elements. (I'm not sure how well I was able to express that - my wording seems kind of lexically bogged down.)
I think people miss the call to action in Anand’s seminal book - Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World.
The call to action in Anand’s book is change the system. Anand? Am I right?
What’s happened and is happening to Black Americans is terrible. Of course it is. But nothing will change unless we change the system. That means winning elections - every election - neighborhood, town, city, state, and federal.
- The 2000 Presidential election was decided by 1 vote - when the Supreme Court voted 5-4 to stop the Florida recount.
- In the 2016 Presidential election, 98 million eligible voters did not vote.
- In the 2018 mid-term elections our country is divided more than ever. Friggin’ Trump, is President. Yet voter turnout was just 48%.
Right now we’re hearing a lot about voting. It’s great. But it’s years too late. Because while we (and that includes yours truly) were protesting, complaining, reading books about how bad things are, the right was busy doing work. They got busy putting their peeps into power. Now they control 31 states, the Supreme Court, the Senate, and the White House. They got the power.
Notorious RBG said, “protests are fine. But they mean nothing unless laws change”. Laws are made by representatives and representatives are hired by the people.
The recent protests are going to backfire. Next week, the party of Trump will dust off Nixon’s playbook from the ’68 elections. In ’68 the pitch was hippies and blacks are bad, they’re lawless, Democrats want to destroy America. Next week it’ll be Democrats are bad, they’re lawless, they want to destroy America.
Ever seen the right protest? No. They don’t bother. Because they know they don’t matter. Instead, the right focuses on getting their peeps into power. Because they know that’s all that matters.
We can go on and on about how bad things are. We can tweet, bitch and moan, tear down statues, and read books such as Isabel’s till the cows come home. Nothing will change. It’ll just get worse.
Republicans and now the party of Trump have been kicking our behinds for years. They’re going to keep kicking our behinds until we the people get that it’s all about changing the system. That changing the system is all about kicking them out and replacing them with new representatives. It’s about winning elections.
Changing the system is really hard work. It’s frustrating, can be super discouraging.
In our case it’s going to take years, because of how far behind we are. It’ll happen, but only if we’re prepared - and patient. In the beginning we’ll lose more than we win. But over time, we’ll win more than we lose.
I know first hand how hard it is. I was the Eminence grise for my friend’s State Representative campaign here in CO. He was the progressive, running against a neo-liberal. He was a former County Commissioner, he had beaucoup cred. He had a significant social presence, he’s well known here in the mountains of CO.
Getting 5 people to volunteer took weeks. When we made calls, one out of a hundred answered their phone. Raising just a few thousand dollars was like pulling teeth, a 24X7 process. We were psyched just to get a handful of people to join a zoom call. Most discouraging of all, was that the #$%^ing Democratic establishment turned on him. Even some on the progressive left, his own peeps, turned against him. We lost by 1500 votes.
I saw a Democratic party that’s lost connection. I saw a bunch of people who like to tweet, but won’t give money or knock on doors. I saw how disengaged young people are. I saw thousands of people who forgot about civics class. I saw that social media is a social disease.
So excuse me while I pass on yet another book that tells me what I already know.
Things have to get worse before they get better. Trump is going to win. And we’ll only have ourselves to blame. Maybe after 4 more years of misery and chaos, Democrats will change their tune, put on their work boots, pack a lunch and get to work? I wonder.
People, if you want change, get busy changing the system. Get off you lazy behinds, get out and go volunteer for a representative you believe in. Get off social media, start knocking on doors. Stop being so selfish, give some of your money to representatives. Start talking with people who’re the polar opposite of your cozy bubble, listen to what their complaints are. Stop with the hating, what you’re so against. Go to your representatives office, tell them how you feel. Organize. And yes, march - peacefully. Vote. Organize. March. Vote. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Last night as I watched the DNC, I remembered that I have a Moms Demand Action shirt. . . and I realized I need to take it out and wear it. Yep. . white privilege here but when connected to the interview with Dr. Wilkerson, it makes sense to where I need to go next as a person who has never had to fight for my place in this country and world.
When things are organized and planned out, I can easily show my activism. I can write letters to the editor, speak at school board meetings, attend rallies and even organize and participate in protests. (Yep, I was almost escorted out of a school board meeting pushing back against those supporting a market based school system.) I can start facebook pages and share all of the problems of the Gate's public education agenda, and I can donate to social justice campaigns/candidates. I can opt my children out of standardized tests that are about labeling and ranking children.
But now I will weigh into the unknown when I walk into the local gas station with my Biden shirt or Moms Demand Action shirt. . . shirts that are counter to the culture I live in and I will be vulnerable to this unorganized activism. . . A new experience for me. . . but absolutely necessary for me if I want to be part of the change our country so desperately needs.
I realize my comments here are open to judgements, but if I understand Anand's purpose in this online community, it is exactly that. . . a place, as a community, to share who we are without judgement.
What have you decided to try to do differently after reading this interview with Dr. Wilkerson?
I look forward to learning from you. As I have mentioned before, my activism is in public education and so I definitely understand what you are saying around both dems and repubs having the same neo liberal agenda to destroy our public schools. Obama's race to the top did as much damage as bush's no child left behind.
We have to be part of the change that makes housing, education etc., human rights for all.
The public system that is about creating an educated citizenry is close to dead. It's about creating a population that serves the billionaires.
I plan to read both books by Dr. Wilkerson and will then be better able to understand your points.
I do look forward to W. Kamau Bell's reporting on the issues of capitalism and needs to change our that. I saw him on Trevor Noah.
Fascism is more than just a president. And it isn't going anywhere after Trump is gone unless Joe Biden does a hell of a lot more than I have any faith in his doing. Or Kamala Harris, for that matter. Neither have any more interest in defunding or demilitarizing the police than Trump, or Obama, or any other "law and order" leader, which Joe Biden (author of the crime bill) is. And Kamala Harris, user of the blunt force of incarceration to solve issues like school truancy, is.
"Law and order" is an inherently authoritarian and fascist motto, as is turning all social ills over to an armed law enforcement to solve, which both parties are increasingly doing. Inequality will continue rising, whether Joe Biden or Trump is in office, and as Nick Hanauer pointed out (while Obama was still in office), with levels like these countries either get armed conflict (pitchforks) or a police state. Right now it's looking like police state.
Oh, I'm not advocating giving up, just not getting complacent. Replacing Trump with Biden won't fix anything on its own. It's a start, especially asTrump and the Mitch McConnell GOP are cooperating to fast track the most fascist tendencies inherent in the system, and the most prominent Democrats (such as Pelosi) are doing little, if anything, to stem or stop that tide.
So, yes, it's up to us to push, to say we see what they are doing and we disagree. In the streets protesting, talking to each other (responsibly socially distanced, of course), at the ballot box.
Gee, I wonder how many people go back and read the earlier posts. I am grateful that these are still here - I have a lot of catching up to do. (Later on, I'm heading back up to the Michael Sandel meritocracy interview and watch some of them free lectures on Youtube.)
30 years of working in a high tech health care sweat shop, and witnessing the changes in the workplace, and in the country, things recognized (but certainly not by all), inchoately seen, and then to find discussion of those things, in the many sources that The Ink provides. Thank you to The Ink.
It feels a little bit like a Rip Van Winkel situation. Not so much from sleep, but fatalism inculcated over the decades since Rayguns. "Caste" is the new stack. But first, I am at present reading "Winners Take All". I have many thoughts as I read, I will spare them in the comments here, other than one: it was clear, in 2008, that if one looked at the simple fact that Barack Obama had amassed more corporate campaign contributions than John McCain, that no significant change would be forthcoming.
But...I proffer an intersectionality of a different kind. Hilary Cohen in chapter one, is echoed in reverse by composer Anna Clyne, who considered but was advised against going into investment banking. She wrote a piece that centered on Willie (sp?) Barlee, of Chicago, of the great migration of Isabel's "The Warmth of Other Suns".
(Incidentally, Washington Irving wrote "Rip Van Winkel" after failing in business.)
Coming relatively late to this. Writing on Jan. 27, I wonder if the title might need to be amended - e.g. the (italics)"After" Fascism part.
I'm trying to remember how long Hitler was in that prison-resort in which he wrote "Mein Kampf" before he made his even bigger comeback. Trump's base loves him even more, and if the developments of this week are any indication, there's a good chance the Republican Party shake out will settle on betting on his future as revenant.
"EET EES ALIIIVE!"
"The Warmth of Other Suns" was one of my favorite books read over the last few years.
Looking forward so much to reading this.
I must have been sick the day they covered all that American Bund stuff in high school history: the 1939 American Nazi rally in Carnegie Hall, Madison Grant, the whole eugenics thing, Fanta!
What a powerful interview. I expect I'll work to memorize this quote.
“It is a fake crown that we wear. My message would be to take off the fake crown. It will cost you more to keep it than to let it go. It is not real. It is just a marker of your programming. You will be happier and freer without it. You will see all of humanity. You will find your true self.”
I plan to see if I can find out what happened to August Landmesser.
Didn't Dr. King understand the caste comparison after his visit to India?
Have you read Ibram Kendi's book "How to be Antiracist" I feel he speaks to some of the points you are bringing up which could be considered assimilation?
It never ceases to amaze me how extensively (some would say expensively) educated people in prominent position of power (intellectually if not otherwise), can be so under-informed. In this instance Dr. Wilkerson - much lionised for her ability to think differently, resorting to the same tired trope about American civil war and comparing the vanquished with the vanquished Germans of the post-World War era. Anyone who goes beyond movie-museum-school book propaganda would know that American civil war wasn't about slavery as much as North's resentment of South moving into newer territories with an unfair labour advantage via its slave population. Meanwhile South's gripe was about being kept out (or deprived the spoils of ethnic cleansing, to use a more accurate description) as America expanded westwards. Like American democracy happily partnering with brutal dictators from Mabuto to Pinochet to King Saud, the issue was not about tyranny or injustice but interests being well met. Unmet interests can lead not just to civil wars, but blockades and bombings as unfriendly dictators in Cuba or Syria know too well. Coming to Germans, Dr. Wilkerson is again unable to go past the dominant narratives (or propaganda, if all the facts were laid on the table). For starters, Third Reich wasn't an unprecedented and dangerous anomaly that engulfed Germany and threatened rest of the world. It was a continuum of the oldest of European traditions well embodied by say the First Reich - the glorious Roman Empire with far widespread territorial aggression, genocides and enslavement that Hitler could only dream of. Third Reich was an anomaly in only that it was deploying fruits of industrial revolution unavailable to its brutal predecessors (thanks in no small measure to the likes of Ford and IBM). The other difference was that unlike legends like Ceaser / Alexander the Great worldwide, Leopold in Congo or Columbus and other Spaniards in America, the Fuhrer chose to practise territorial grabbing and genocide in Europe and not in distant Africa, Asia or America. German grievance before, during and post-Hitler was therefore less about "how could we?" and more about "why only us?" More so when Hitler's ally imperial Japan that had engaged in similar atrocities across Asia, had got a free pass. Far from being tried for war crimes, it's Emperor was eulogised by Western leaders; the shrines of his men (some of them mass rapists and cannibals) get prominent yearly visit by the Japanese prime minister till this day. That millions of Germans were murdered post-Hitler, many without formality of even Kangaroo courts or the fact that liberators from both the Red Army and America's golden generation raped almost every single female in Berlin after the fall, could not have helped matters. It is indeed strange or rather disturbing that Dr. Wilkerson - a female and a person of colour with all the academic resources at her disposal could see the falsehood and racism that marked her study area i.e. Nazi era but could not spot the falsehood and racism that marks the historiography dealing with Nazism or there is little to compare between the two scenarios.
Thank you for bringing some other pieces of the picture together here; agreed on very many points. But I think that there are perhaps valid elements of explanation in both. Elements of caste and also in those factors that you describe. The patterns, all manifestations of dominant group versus "weaker" groups - us versus them - play out throughout the horror show of human history. It takes different forms given the historical and cultural contexts. I think that the whole thing grows out of an intersection of a number of human tendencies, and all share common etiological elements. (I'm not sure how well I was able to express that - my wording seems kind of lexically bogged down.)
I think people miss the call to action in Anand’s seminal book - Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World.
The call to action in Anand’s book is change the system. Anand? Am I right?
What’s happened and is happening to Black Americans is terrible. Of course it is. But nothing will change unless we change the system. That means winning elections - every election - neighborhood, town, city, state, and federal.
- The 2000 Presidential election was decided by 1 vote - when the Supreme Court voted 5-4 to stop the Florida recount.
- In the 2016 Presidential election, 98 million eligible voters did not vote.
- In the 2018 mid-term elections our country is divided more than ever. Friggin’ Trump, is President. Yet voter turnout was just 48%.
Right now we’re hearing a lot about voting. It’s great. But it’s years too late. Because while we (and that includes yours truly) were protesting, complaining, reading books about how bad things are, the right was busy doing work. They got busy putting their peeps into power. Now they control 31 states, the Supreme Court, the Senate, and the White House. They got the power.
Notorious RBG said, “protests are fine. But they mean nothing unless laws change”. Laws are made by representatives and representatives are hired by the people.
The recent protests are going to backfire. Next week, the party of Trump will dust off Nixon’s playbook from the ’68 elections. In ’68 the pitch was hippies and blacks are bad, they’re lawless, Democrats want to destroy America. Next week it’ll be Democrats are bad, they’re lawless, they want to destroy America.
Ever seen the right protest? No. They don’t bother. Because they know they don’t matter. Instead, the right focuses on getting their peeps into power. Because they know that’s all that matters.
We can go on and on about how bad things are. We can tweet, bitch and moan, tear down statues, and read books such as Isabel’s till the cows come home. Nothing will change. It’ll just get worse.
Republicans and now the party of Trump have been kicking our behinds for years. They’re going to keep kicking our behinds until we the people get that it’s all about changing the system. That changing the system is all about kicking them out and replacing them with new representatives. It’s about winning elections.
Changing the system is really hard work. It’s frustrating, can be super discouraging.
In our case it’s going to take years, because of how far behind we are. It’ll happen, but only if we’re prepared - and patient. In the beginning we’ll lose more than we win. But over time, we’ll win more than we lose.
I know first hand how hard it is. I was the Eminence grise for my friend’s State Representative campaign here in CO. He was the progressive, running against a neo-liberal. He was a former County Commissioner, he had beaucoup cred. He had a significant social presence, he’s well known here in the mountains of CO.
Getting 5 people to volunteer took weeks. When we made calls, one out of a hundred answered their phone. Raising just a few thousand dollars was like pulling teeth, a 24X7 process. We were psyched just to get a handful of people to join a zoom call. Most discouraging of all, was that the #$%^ing Democratic establishment turned on him. Even some on the progressive left, his own peeps, turned against him. We lost by 1500 votes.
I saw a Democratic party that’s lost connection. I saw a bunch of people who like to tweet, but won’t give money or knock on doors. I saw how disengaged young people are. I saw thousands of people who forgot about civics class. I saw that social media is a social disease.
So excuse me while I pass on yet another book that tells me what I already know.
Things have to get worse before they get better. Trump is going to win. And we’ll only have ourselves to blame. Maybe after 4 more years of misery and chaos, Democrats will change their tune, put on their work boots, pack a lunch and get to work? I wonder.
People, if you want change, get busy changing the system. Get off you lazy behinds, get out and go volunteer for a representative you believe in. Get off social media, start knocking on doors. Stop being so selfish, give some of your money to representatives. Start talking with people who’re the polar opposite of your cozy bubble, listen to what their complaints are. Stop with the hating, what you’re so against. Go to your representatives office, tell them how you feel. Organize. And yes, march - peacefully. Vote. Organize. March. Vote. Lather, rinse, repeat.
peace and love,
Last night as I watched the DNC, I remembered that I have a Moms Demand Action shirt. . . and I realized I need to take it out and wear it. Yep. . white privilege here but when connected to the interview with Dr. Wilkerson, it makes sense to where I need to go next as a person who has never had to fight for my place in this country and world.
When things are organized and planned out, I can easily show my activism. I can write letters to the editor, speak at school board meetings, attend rallies and even organize and participate in protests. (Yep, I was almost escorted out of a school board meeting pushing back against those supporting a market based school system.) I can start facebook pages and share all of the problems of the Gate's public education agenda, and I can donate to social justice campaigns/candidates. I can opt my children out of standardized tests that are about labeling and ranking children.
But now I will weigh into the unknown when I walk into the local gas station with my Biden shirt or Moms Demand Action shirt. . . shirts that are counter to the culture I live in and I will be vulnerable to this unorganized activism. . . A new experience for me. . . but absolutely necessary for me if I want to be part of the change our country so desperately needs.
I realize my comments here are open to judgements, but if I understand Anand's purpose in this online community, it is exactly that. . . a place, as a community, to share who we are without judgement.
What have you decided to try to do differently after reading this interview with Dr. Wilkerson?
I look forward to learning from you. As I have mentioned before, my activism is in public education and so I definitely understand what you are saying around both dems and repubs having the same neo liberal agenda to destroy our public schools. Obama's race to the top did as much damage as bush's no child left behind.
We have to be part of the change that makes housing, education etc., human rights for all.
The public system that is about creating an educated citizenry is close to dead. It's about creating a population that serves the billionaires.
I plan to read both books by Dr. Wilkerson and will then be better able to understand your points.
I do look forward to W. Kamau Bell's reporting on the issues of capitalism and needs to change our that. I saw him on Trevor Noah.
Fascism is more than just a president. And it isn't going anywhere after Trump is gone unless Joe Biden does a hell of a lot more than I have any faith in his doing. Or Kamala Harris, for that matter. Neither have any more interest in defunding or demilitarizing the police than Trump, or Obama, or any other "law and order" leader, which Joe Biden (author of the crime bill) is. And Kamala Harris, user of the blunt force of incarceration to solve issues like school truancy, is.
"Law and order" is an inherently authoritarian and fascist motto, as is turning all social ills over to an armed law enforcement to solve, which both parties are increasingly doing. Inequality will continue rising, whether Joe Biden or Trump is in office, and as Nick Hanauer pointed out (while Obama was still in office), with levels like these countries either get armed conflict (pitchforks) or a police state. Right now it's looking like police state.
Oh, I'm not advocating giving up, just not getting complacent. Replacing Trump with Biden won't fix anything on its own. It's a start, especially asTrump and the Mitch McConnell GOP are cooperating to fast track the most fascist tendencies inherent in the system, and the most prominent Democrats (such as Pelosi) are doing little, if anything, to stem or stop that tide.
So, yes, it's up to us to push, to say we see what they are doing and we disagree. In the streets protesting, talking to each other (responsibly socially distanced, of course), at the ballot box.
Gee, I wonder how many people go back and read the earlier posts. I am grateful that these are still here - I have a lot of catching up to do. (Later on, I'm heading back up to the Michael Sandel meritocracy interview and watch some of them free lectures on Youtube.)
30 years of working in a high tech health care sweat shop, and witnessing the changes in the workplace, and in the country, things recognized (but certainly not by all), inchoately seen, and then to find discussion of those things, in the many sources that The Ink provides. Thank you to The Ink.
It feels a little bit like a Rip Van Winkel situation. Not so much from sleep, but fatalism inculcated over the decades since Rayguns. "Caste" is the new stack. But first, I am at present reading "Winners Take All". I have many thoughts as I read, I will spare them in the comments here, other than one: it was clear, in 2008, that if one looked at the simple fact that Barack Obama had amassed more corporate campaign contributions than John McCain, that no significant change would be forthcoming.
But...I proffer an intersectionality of a different kind. Hilary Cohen in chapter one, is echoed in reverse by composer Anna Clyne, who considered but was advised against going into investment banking. She wrote a piece that centered on Willie (sp?) Barlee, of Chicago, of the great migration of Isabel's "The Warmth of Other Suns".
(Incidentally, Washington Irving wrote "Rip Van Winkel" after failing in business.)
Thank you again.
Anna!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsgylkXFFUw
A wonderful day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSxAQIaBXJ8
I'm sure glad that she was advised against banking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEwUj-ZwkDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La22CjPFbIY
Coming relatively late to this. Writing on Jan. 27, I wonder if the title might need to be amended - e.g. the (italics)"After" Fascism part.
I'm trying to remember how long Hitler was in that prison-resort in which he wrote "Mein Kampf" before he made his even bigger comeback. Trump's base loves him even more, and if the developments of this week are any indication, there's a good chance the Republican Party shake out will settle on betting on his future as revenant.
"EET EES ALIIIVE!"
"The Warmth of Other Suns" was one of my favorite books read over the last few years.
Looking forward so much to reading this.
I must have been sick the day they covered all that American Bund stuff in high school history: the 1939 American Nazi rally in Carnegie Hall, Madison Grant, the whole eugenics thing, Fanta!
Jason Reynolds rewriting of "Stamped" is excellent too. It's meant for middle and high school, but I loved it!
Are either of you familiar with Invisible People?
https://invisiblepeople.tv/homeless-advocacy-starts-with-listening-interview-with-coalition-on-homelessness/amp/