My conversation with the expatriate writer Lindsey Tramuta, who has reported on rising numbers of Americans fleeing a troubled America for rights and security
1. Many US citizens who are not wealthy, but have some income, are leaving because of the US cost of living, which is no longer just a coastal problem. This is the biggest group I have met on my travels in Europe.
2. Why is it necessary for us, as US citizens, to have to "stay and fight" for a different world? It's insulting to those who simply want to live their lives in peace and fear of tyranny. Should German Jews or gays have stayed to fight?
3. I am increasingly uncomfortable living in a country that feels so adverse to my beliefs, especially when a significant percentage of US residents, perhaps even half, actually believe in the direction the country is going. If a right-wing Republican, say JD Vance is elected in 2028, this will be a strong and clear message about the preferences of Americans, and it will no longer be a country that I would want to live in.
Completely agree with your points, especially 2 and 3. As someone in their mid-60s with no descendants to worry about, why should I "stay and fight" for a country where 1/3 of voters went for you-know-who (many against their own interests) and another 1/3 couldn't be bothered to vote? People get the country they deserve. I just want to live out the rest of my life in a stress-free, peaceful environment.
Thank you so much for your post. I agree with you. This is not the country I want to live in! If I had the money, I would have left right after the last election.
My late father's greatest gift to me was my ability to get a Canadian passport two years ago. Never thought I would have to use it. But it's nice to have just in case.
Same here, only my late father was German and I'm still patiently waiting for the paperwork to slowly wend its way through the German bureaucracy. Initially I applied to honor my heritage and because it was cool, but it's increasingly turning into my "get out of jail free card" if I need it.
As an elder, white male whose father and grandfather have been part of this land since the 17th Century, I am saddened to hear that so many people prefer emigration to resistance. The country needs people who love it enough to stay and defend it. Frederick Douglass is a good historical example of such a person. He was offered and he declined a life of respect and fame in the United Kingdom in order to serve, not just his own race, but his country and, thereby humanity. He exposed himself to vitriol and venom and fought back in writings and speeches,in advocacy and uplift. Those who are aghast at Trump’s policies and behavior should stay, not flee. As Patrick Henry said so memorably, "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me liberty or give me death.”
Personally, I would prefer to live for my country than die for it. But the country needs patriots, not fairweather friends. It needs men and women who are willing to sacrifice some degree of personal well-being so that this country may regain its moral compass and remember the difference between Truth and falsehood, Courage and fear. If good people, who understand and hold dear these distinctions flee the U.S., only those without either understanding or morality will remain. Then neither the nation nor its people will know freedom.
The thing is, I feel like I have been doing this my whole life, and it hasn't worked, and I'm tired of it. And it hasn't worked as much because of my fellow progressives as because of the reactionary elements in American politics. We have a really serious problem that I _personally_ can't solve. There is no battle front where I can stand and face death in service of liberty, as in your Patrick Henry quote.
So I can absolutely stand in solidarity with my fellow Americans, but that doesn't have to mean standing in front of a tank and getting squashed. That didn't work out particularly well in Tiananmen Square. I think one of our great weaknesses is that we value ideology over solidarity, and that's what we need to work on.
And also, as was discussed in the video, this is really a worldwide problem. I don't see it as a worldwide movement, because I think a lot of this is actually coming from propaganda rather than emerging organically, but I guess you could call it a movement in the sense that the oligarchs seem to want it.
The point is, the oligarchs are a worldwide phenomenon, not an American phenomenon. Elon Musk isn't an American in any meaningful sense, just as an example. Neither obviously is J.K. Rowling. But they're both part of this movement to do everything possible to divide the people from each other, everywhere in the world.
To me, that is the real battle, if it's fair to even use that word. We need to stop letting billionaires talk us out of solidarity. It's really that simple. And we can do that anywhere. Indeed if we think national borders somehow constrain where we can do that, we're buying into the propaganda.
Ted, I think you're on to something very important. Solidariity-- Unity-- IS important.The inclination to think "locally" rather than nationally has been part of the problem since Henry gave his famous speech. The Colonies had trouble supporting the Continental Army led by Washington because they were so concerned about local issues they couldn't provide adequately for the very Army that was fighting for them all against the British. I don't think everyone will be as dedicated to unity aa some people are, but enough people have to do so that they can coordinate orders, plans and policies.
I think dedication to unity might not actually be exactly the right focus anyway. It's more like skepticism of divisive input. I think we are not so bad at unifying; the problem is that a really huge amount of work is being done to divide us, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, and it's worked.
This comes from various sources: the oligarchs I mentioned, but also when our participation is compromised because we are trying to satisfy our own emotional needs, most notably the need for approval, in the midst of discussions that simply aren't _about us_.
I use the second person plural intentionally: I have this problem too. I think if we really take care not to _damage_ solidarity, this fosters solidarity without us needing to do anything more, but it's not easy, and it requires us to be very conscious of why and how we are engaging.
(e.g., the way you responded here did a good job of not damaging solidarity, and I approve! : )
There will always be forces aiming to nurture divisiveness. Some will be deliberate, some will be natural and inevitable. You mention the tank at Tianneman Square and notvwanting to lay under it. Lol, I'm with you on that. But i think there have to be enough people who regard self-sacrifice as part of their duty to unity that the forces of division have no openings to exploit. This is the kind of solidarity found in military combat units. Look, there is no guarantee that enough people do love their country enough to make sacrifices on its behalf. Present company included. We don't know what we will do or not do on behalf of a cause until we are asked to do it. Still, the ideal of unity, solidarity, is generally more inspiring than "every man for himself". First people need to be inspired, then they need each other's encouragement and support. We in the U.S. have a couple of inspiring quotes that should be held within our hearts as guiding lights of unity. Thise quotes are the opening of the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution. Those passages express what America is supposed to be about and are as inspiring today as they were 250 years ago. We just have to believe in them. They are human truths, that almost any people longing for a better world could sign onto. Like greed and corruption they are cross-cultural realities, but unlike greed and corruption, they call forth the best qualities of civilization and humankind.
True. Isn't it funny that in our land of "rugged individualism," we actually value certain forms of solidarity so highly?
FWIW, I think that there is a bit of a forcing function in the solidarity that soldiers have: for better or for worse, they made a decision, based on an ideal or possibly base on a rational risk evaluation, which led to a situation where they had to make a hard choice, possibly toward self-sacrifice, possibly toward killing an enemy. By the time we're at the pointy end of the causal chain, there really isn't much of a decision to make. Patrick Henry's speech was before a gallows, IIRC.
I think we tend to dramatize and valorize these situations, and really extremely undervalue the kind of workmanlike heroism that prevents such situations from occurring. E.g., remember Y2K and what a fizzle that was? In fact it wasn't: tens of thousands of people worked for years leading up to the turn of the century to prevent Y2K from being a disaster, and it worked. But we talk about it as if it was a false alarm. Same thing with the ozone layer. Etc.
We need to value this sort of heroism at least as highly as that of soldiers. And think of emergency workers. They often take risks with their lives to protect life, but rarely get the same kind of praise that soldiers get.
I was born in 1967 and have never felt truly comfortable in the U.S. for various reasons. I can honestly say that I saw this current state we're in coming my entire life and did everything I could over the years to help stop it from happening to no avail. At almost 59 years of age now, I don't think things will turn around via the kind of true paradigm shift that needs to happen to align with my personal values during my lifetime. First and foremost, I identify myself as a human being, then below that, as a female, then below that as an American and below that as a U.S. citizen. As a human being observing all that the U.S. claims to be and all the resources it has, the most crushing emotion I feel now is disappointment. We should be better than we are by a long shot at this point. For myself, I am extremely uncomfortable with our posture in the world and don't want to be a part of it in any way. Indeed, I have a dear friend who just says, "Trump won't be around forever, and then we'll have the next guy." Sorry...no. This goes way deeper than one man. There is a sickness about a huge and growing segment of this population that I cannot ignore.
I would give this 10 likes if I could. You could be describing me, except there was once a time when I did feel comfortable here and proud to be an American. (I guess I wasn't looking too closely.) These days, I have never been more ashamed and disgusted to be an American, and I deeply resent that my embezzled tax payments are being used to blow up schoolgirls or dumped into the bottomless black hole of Netanyahu's Reich so they can do the same or worse.
Not-so-fun-fact: Did you know that the US and Eritrea are the only 2 countries that tax their citizens on their worldwide income no matter where they live? Gotta keep the arms industry alive!
Julia, this is a response both to Kirsten and to you. I started my responses by saying I'm an old white man with roots in this country that reach back to the 1600's. I treasure the Founding principles of this country and am a great admirer of Abraham Lincoln. I came of age in the 1960's and still remember where I was and what I was doing when JFK was shot. But i was out of the country when MLK and RFK were killed and have spent much of my life studying Sufism. All of which is to say that though I feel as American as apple pie, my belief in America is rooted in my belief that human beings have the capacity for improvement, even though we also frequently display the habit of regression. My faith in our capacity for Goodness, however, outweighs my awareness of our tendency to default to evil. Even when darkness and night seem to descend, light exists and it is up to each of us to remind one another that, as human beings, we belong to the Light. The best part of who we are is to remenber this fact and nurture it in ourselves and others. Then, even if the darkness does seem to be prevailing, the Light will continue, if only as the remembrance of our possibility and the way in which we ourselves treat others.
Most of this conversation was not new to me, although definitely valued, but one thing that jumped out at me was the idea that Americans or America as a culture might resist adopting ideas from other countries because that would somehow make us (this wasn't stated, but is the only way I can imagine framing it) less dominant.
Like, WTF? Why is being dominant good? Why can't we just learn from each other and mutually support each other and celebrate the wisdom that we can find in each culture? And indeed isn't that what we were doing as an immigrant nation?
This feels _really_ central to me—it was weird to hear it just taken as a given that America can't take ideas from other countries, but at the same time it also feels true.
Ted, thanks for bringing this up! It sort of came to me suddenly as I was answering Anand’s question that a certain subset of Americans (and certainly most of conservative leadership) feel they have nothing to learn or gain from others, that they’re already exceptional as is their country. It’s not only patently false but a surefire way to perpetuate the myth of exceptionalism even further, despite hard facts that demonstrate the country is failing most of its people. Thank you for commenting on this.
Thanks for doing the interview, and the work more generally! On a semi-related topic, do you know about Democrats Abroad? I will admit that we've mostly used it so far to connect with other Americans in our community, but when you were talking about the five million Americans living abroad, and how that's like a whole state, I started wondering if that actually makes sense. I feel a bit disenfranchised, even though of course I can still vote in Vermont. It occurs to me that this is a thing that, in a better time hopefully soon, we could actually advocate for, in the way that we talk about D.C. or Puerto Rico becoming a state. Seems a bit crazy to talk about it, but why not?
I sure do know Dems Abroad! They are super active! I vote in PA and the state is making it harder and harder but I still go through the steps. I agree, we should all be advocating for more as a collective abroad !
Regarding resistance or acceptance of others' ideas (and values), I suspect as one of your respondents said that-- if it's true-- it's only a "subset" and it's likely to be only a subset of that's subset's ideas that they resist. Justices on the Supreme Court have rejec ted the idea that they should accept international law or legal precedent from other countries. But what American ideals and thinking do not have their beginnings in other countries? The ideals of equality arose in Greece and the Middle East with democratic Athens and the prophets of Judeo-Christianity-Islam, the belief in property rights and power and hierarchy can be traced to (I think) Roman Law and certainly the caste system of Hinduism. We are all repositories of those from whom we learned, back to Adam and Eve. Not to mention, dare I say it-- receiving our human consciousness and conscience from the Mystery people often call God. So if there is resistance to "foreign" ideas, it has to be at the most superficial level. However, you have apparently been so disheartened by the idea that Americans do resist ideas from abroad, I wonder if you might share a couple of examples that concern you?
I can’t speak for Lindsey but Universal Healthcare is a big one! Social safety net, privacy laws, worker’s rights, corporate regulations, collectivism … not the ideas themselves, but the extent and seriousness to which other countries implement them compared to us.
There is no doubt that the U.S. could do better. Unfortunately its modern government has gone beyond simply recognizing that people are selfish and therefore need government to temper their excesses through law. That is the point of James Madison’s famous adage that if men were angels, government would be unnecessary. Today’s U.S. government has decided that rather than curbing people’s excesses, its purpose should be not only to permit them but to nurture them, all the while claiming to do so in the name of freedom. It nurtures the worst of human passions-- anger, hatred, greed, selfishness-- and denies the best-- compassion, unselfishness and love. Unfortunately again, it indulges the worst among the rich and powerful-- communicating to all that the rich deserve their corrjpting pleasures and that the poor deserve to be their victims and playthings. Their attitude toward those without power was best expressed by the villain played by Eli Wallach in the original “The Magnificent Seven”: “If God did not want them (i.e. the poor and powerless) to be sheared, He would not have made them sheep.”
Well put - and you are certainly not "ineloquent"! Thank you for the reminder about The Magnificent Seven (the movie, not the stocks) and one of my favorite actors. I will make it a point to watch that movie again, and very soon!
As an immigrant beginning in the late 60’s, becoming a U.S. citizen, to then becoming an emigrant in 2015 and an expat living abroad, this conversation between Anand and Lindsay is extremely poignant and all to rare to hear.
The question of whether other countries should receive American asylum seekers is a stunning one! I left America during what I thought were some of its best years in terms of governance. When trump was elected everybody asked me “How did you know?” But I didn’t. I left America because I wanted to experience living elsewhere and I don’t regret that decision.
What Lindsay says at the end of the conversation is my wish too for Americans and America: Experience, by any means possible, some extended time abroad AND participate in America’s future.
Perhaps one may gain a wider perspective regarding one’s own capacity to participate which undoubtedly creates a better future for all everywhere.
Very colorful, diverse, safe and enjoyable community - with a rising expat community especially since Covid. Lots of West Coast fire refugees. Too much wealth pouring in and sadly changing the landscape (for profit less for residency) in a very short time. Mostly, our local government’s doing by bending too many rules on height restrictions.
I am originally a New Zealander, raised in Beirut, educated in the UK and created an entrepreneurial life in the U.S. Learning Spanish, in my 60’s for the first time and participating in local community projects makes my experience all the more interesting. None of our children live in Mexico although they have non-U.S partners. One of them, struggling to make enough to live on in NY, moved to Japan.
We find meeting spots around the world. So the trend continues. If we spend our last dime exploring more of the world, we’re happy!
Thanks for your insight and raising questions and thoughts on many Americans minds.
WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS!...we who are not indigenous to this land, specially we arrogant Anglo white folk and specially the worst of the white men who are on top and more terrified than ever, of we women ~
I know I'm late coming to this video, so probably no one will see this. You mention going abroad to France, Germany, Scandinavia etc, but no mention of Canada, which is right next door, speaks English (mostly) and has a similar lifestyle, but with a different outlook and no guns. The Carney government has opened up immigration possibilities to anyone who has Canadian ancestors, as far back as one can prove. Tod Maffin, a man from Nanaimo BC, has responded to this crisis in the US by inviting Americans over to his community to visit, and by putting an emphasis on health care workers who would like to live here. He has created a whole "infusion" network across the country to attract healthcare workers. Why would Americans not think of Canada first?
On the same day I listened to your discussion here of a Trump-induced diaspora of sorts, FB sent me this terrific clip about the way the algorithms can feed our false assumptions about immigration/emigration. https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1GoNGHBwZ6/
Needless to say, I sought out David Olusoga's full speech, which is wonderfully illuminating!
One person who left America because of the very conservative era of the 1920s was William L. Shirer who wrote the classic The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He came back after World War II and promptly got red baited. Or the more things changed in his absence, the more they remained the same. The conservatives he fled from in the 1920s, were waiting for him!!
I woulda coulda, if it were not for my being older, older enough to want the embrace of my kids and their families. One child works in the field of healthcare with transgender youth. She is a fierce activist, and for the time being, her work is still viable. They live amongst truly friendly neighbors with a wonderful elementary school. The other child-adult is in academia, where it is a very different story. So that trajectory isn't clear.
We owned a house near Lucca in Italy for 20 years, and we reluctantly sold it last year, not wanting to wait till we were too frail and my husband generously not wanting our kids to have that burden, since although it is idyllic, it was a little too removed for our children's taste.
If I could, I would. In Europe, TRUMP IS EVERYWHERE, BUT YOU DON'T TASTE IT, YOU DON'T BREATHE IN ITS TOXICITY, LIKE HERE. We're going to Norway and then to Italy very soon, and we may not want to come back. We had impulsive beginnings, so who knows now? We also have citizenship, a beautiful thing.
I write, and I hope some of you will look at my book, Vulnerability Protected: Visions of a Dancing Mind. I see some therapy patients whom I could see from anywhere.
I can feel the longing of being away from where the headlines puncture potential sanity and ease. I choose sparingly; often, it is just too much and just too toxic.
I can so see and feel the visceral necessity of leaving here. I just don't know that we can. You know, our doctors are here.
Love this interview, Anand. I'm not at all surprised that women ages 15-44 are the most disillusioned. I was a provider in women's health care for a big chunk of my career and I'm deeply disturbed by the astoundingly grotesque level of both racism and misogyny in the US. I think the point was well made that this far right wing "anti-other" is indeed a global phenomenon so, whether we leave or stay, the fight will have to continue.
Interesting topic; heard a report on NPR the other day about a woman in the Netherlands running a business called “Get the F**k Out” -assisting US citizens who want to relocate ….and not only wealthy people.
Great topic, very pertinent. Three thoughts:
1. Many US citizens who are not wealthy, but have some income, are leaving because of the US cost of living, which is no longer just a coastal problem. This is the biggest group I have met on my travels in Europe.
2. Why is it necessary for us, as US citizens, to have to "stay and fight" for a different world? It's insulting to those who simply want to live their lives in peace and fear of tyranny. Should German Jews or gays have stayed to fight?
3. I am increasingly uncomfortable living in a country that feels so adverse to my beliefs, especially when a significant percentage of US residents, perhaps even half, actually believe in the direction the country is going. If a right-wing Republican, say JD Vance is elected in 2028, this will be a strong and clear message about the preferences of Americans, and it will no longer be a country that I would want to live in.
Completely agree with your points, especially 2 and 3. As someone in their mid-60s with no descendants to worry about, why should I "stay and fight" for a country where 1/3 of voters went for you-know-who (many against their own interests) and another 1/3 couldn't be bothered to vote? People get the country they deserve. I just want to live out the rest of my life in a stress-free, peaceful environment.
Thank you so much for your post. I agree with you. This is not the country I want to live in! If I had the money, I would have left right after the last election.
My late father's greatest gift to me was my ability to get a Canadian passport two years ago. Never thought I would have to use it. But it's nice to have just in case.
Same here, only my late father was German and I'm still patiently waiting for the paperwork to slowly wend its way through the German bureaucracy. Initially I applied to honor my heritage and because it was cool, but it's increasingly turning into my "get out of jail free card" if I need it.
As an elder, white male whose father and grandfather have been part of this land since the 17th Century, I am saddened to hear that so many people prefer emigration to resistance. The country needs people who love it enough to stay and defend it. Frederick Douglass is a good historical example of such a person. He was offered and he declined a life of respect and fame in the United Kingdom in order to serve, not just his own race, but his country and, thereby humanity. He exposed himself to vitriol and venom and fought back in writings and speeches,in advocacy and uplift. Those who are aghast at Trump’s policies and behavior should stay, not flee. As Patrick Henry said so memorably, "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me liberty or give me death.”
Personally, I would prefer to live for my country than die for it. But the country needs patriots, not fairweather friends. It needs men and women who are willing to sacrifice some degree of personal well-being so that this country may regain its moral compass and remember the difference between Truth and falsehood, Courage and fear. If good people, who understand and hold dear these distinctions flee the U.S., only those without either understanding or morality will remain. Then neither the nation nor its people will know freedom.
The thing is, I feel like I have been doing this my whole life, and it hasn't worked, and I'm tired of it. And it hasn't worked as much because of my fellow progressives as because of the reactionary elements in American politics. We have a really serious problem that I _personally_ can't solve. There is no battle front where I can stand and face death in service of liberty, as in your Patrick Henry quote.
So I can absolutely stand in solidarity with my fellow Americans, but that doesn't have to mean standing in front of a tank and getting squashed. That didn't work out particularly well in Tiananmen Square. I think one of our great weaknesses is that we value ideology over solidarity, and that's what we need to work on.
And also, as was discussed in the video, this is really a worldwide problem. I don't see it as a worldwide movement, because I think a lot of this is actually coming from propaganda rather than emerging organically, but I guess you could call it a movement in the sense that the oligarchs seem to want it.
The point is, the oligarchs are a worldwide phenomenon, not an American phenomenon. Elon Musk isn't an American in any meaningful sense, just as an example. Neither obviously is J.K. Rowling. But they're both part of this movement to do everything possible to divide the people from each other, everywhere in the world.
To me, that is the real battle, if it's fair to even use that word. We need to stop letting billionaires talk us out of solidarity. It's really that simple. And we can do that anywhere. Indeed if we think national borders somehow constrain where we can do that, we're buying into the propaganda.
Ted, I think you're on to something very important. Solidariity-- Unity-- IS important.The inclination to think "locally" rather than nationally has been part of the problem since Henry gave his famous speech. The Colonies had trouble supporting the Continental Army led by Washington because they were so concerned about local issues they couldn't provide adequately for the very Army that was fighting for them all against the British. I don't think everyone will be as dedicated to unity aa some people are, but enough people have to do so that they can coordinate orders, plans and policies.
I think dedication to unity might not actually be exactly the right focus anyway. It's more like skepticism of divisive input. I think we are not so bad at unifying; the problem is that a really huge amount of work is being done to divide us, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, and it's worked.
This comes from various sources: the oligarchs I mentioned, but also when our participation is compromised because we are trying to satisfy our own emotional needs, most notably the need for approval, in the midst of discussions that simply aren't _about us_.
I use the second person plural intentionally: I have this problem too. I think if we really take care not to _damage_ solidarity, this fosters solidarity without us needing to do anything more, but it's not easy, and it requires us to be very conscious of why and how we are engaging.
(e.g., the way you responded here did a good job of not damaging solidarity, and I approve! : )
There will always be forces aiming to nurture divisiveness. Some will be deliberate, some will be natural and inevitable. You mention the tank at Tianneman Square and notvwanting to lay under it. Lol, I'm with you on that. But i think there have to be enough people who regard self-sacrifice as part of their duty to unity that the forces of division have no openings to exploit. This is the kind of solidarity found in military combat units. Look, there is no guarantee that enough people do love their country enough to make sacrifices on its behalf. Present company included. We don't know what we will do or not do on behalf of a cause until we are asked to do it. Still, the ideal of unity, solidarity, is generally more inspiring than "every man for himself". First people need to be inspired, then they need each other's encouragement and support. We in the U.S. have a couple of inspiring quotes that should be held within our hearts as guiding lights of unity. Thise quotes are the opening of the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution. Those passages express what America is supposed to be about and are as inspiring today as they were 250 years ago. We just have to believe in them. They are human truths, that almost any people longing for a better world could sign onto. Like greed and corruption they are cross-cultural realities, but unlike greed and corruption, they call forth the best qualities of civilization and humankind.
True. Isn't it funny that in our land of "rugged individualism," we actually value certain forms of solidarity so highly?
FWIW, I think that there is a bit of a forcing function in the solidarity that soldiers have: for better or for worse, they made a decision, based on an ideal or possibly base on a rational risk evaluation, which led to a situation where they had to make a hard choice, possibly toward self-sacrifice, possibly toward killing an enemy. By the time we're at the pointy end of the causal chain, there really isn't much of a decision to make. Patrick Henry's speech was before a gallows, IIRC.
I think we tend to dramatize and valorize these situations, and really extremely undervalue the kind of workmanlike heroism that prevents such situations from occurring. E.g., remember Y2K and what a fizzle that was? In fact it wasn't: tens of thousands of people worked for years leading up to the turn of the century to prevent Y2K from being a disaster, and it worked. But we talk about it as if it was a false alarm. Same thing with the ozone layer. Etc.
We need to value this sort of heroism at least as highly as that of soldiers. And think of emergency workers. They often take risks with their lives to protect life, but rarely get the same kind of praise that soldiers get.
I was born in 1967 and have never felt truly comfortable in the U.S. for various reasons. I can honestly say that I saw this current state we're in coming my entire life and did everything I could over the years to help stop it from happening to no avail. At almost 59 years of age now, I don't think things will turn around via the kind of true paradigm shift that needs to happen to align with my personal values during my lifetime. First and foremost, I identify myself as a human being, then below that, as a female, then below that as an American and below that as a U.S. citizen. As a human being observing all that the U.S. claims to be and all the resources it has, the most crushing emotion I feel now is disappointment. We should be better than we are by a long shot at this point. For myself, I am extremely uncomfortable with our posture in the world and don't want to be a part of it in any way. Indeed, I have a dear friend who just says, "Trump won't be around forever, and then we'll have the next guy." Sorry...no. This goes way deeper than one man. There is a sickness about a huge and growing segment of this population that I cannot ignore.
I would give this 10 likes if I could. You could be describing me, except there was once a time when I did feel comfortable here and proud to be an American. (I guess I wasn't looking too closely.) These days, I have never been more ashamed and disgusted to be an American, and I deeply resent that my embezzled tax payments are being used to blow up schoolgirls or dumped into the bottomless black hole of Netanyahu's Reich so they can do the same or worse.
Not-so-fun-fact: Did you know that the US and Eritrea are the only 2 countries that tax their citizens on their worldwide income no matter where they live? Gotta keep the arms industry alive!
Julia, this is a response both to Kirsten and to you. I started my responses by saying I'm an old white man with roots in this country that reach back to the 1600's. I treasure the Founding principles of this country and am a great admirer of Abraham Lincoln. I came of age in the 1960's and still remember where I was and what I was doing when JFK was shot. But i was out of the country when MLK and RFK were killed and have spent much of my life studying Sufism. All of which is to say that though I feel as American as apple pie, my belief in America is rooted in my belief that human beings have the capacity for improvement, even though we also frequently display the habit of regression. My faith in our capacity for Goodness, however, outweighs my awareness of our tendency to default to evil. Even when darkness and night seem to descend, light exists and it is up to each of us to remind one another that, as human beings, we belong to the Light. The best part of who we are is to remenber this fact and nurture it in ourselves and others. Then, even if the darkness does seem to be prevailing, the Light will continue, if only as the remembrance of our possibility and the way in which we ourselves treat others.
Most of this conversation was not new to me, although definitely valued, but one thing that jumped out at me was the idea that Americans or America as a culture might resist adopting ideas from other countries because that would somehow make us (this wasn't stated, but is the only way I can imagine framing it) less dominant.
Like, WTF? Why is being dominant good? Why can't we just learn from each other and mutually support each other and celebrate the wisdom that we can find in each culture? And indeed isn't that what we were doing as an immigrant nation?
This feels _really_ central to me—it was weird to hear it just taken as a given that America can't take ideas from other countries, but at the same time it also feels true.
Ted, thanks for bringing this up! It sort of came to me suddenly as I was answering Anand’s question that a certain subset of Americans (and certainly most of conservative leadership) feel they have nothing to learn or gain from others, that they’re already exceptional as is their country. It’s not only patently false but a surefire way to perpetuate the myth of exceptionalism even further, despite hard facts that demonstrate the country is failing most of its people. Thank you for commenting on this.
Thanks for doing the interview, and the work more generally! On a semi-related topic, do you know about Democrats Abroad? I will admit that we've mostly used it so far to connect with other Americans in our community, but when you were talking about the five million Americans living abroad, and how that's like a whole state, I started wondering if that actually makes sense. I feel a bit disenfranchised, even though of course I can still vote in Vermont. It occurs to me that this is a thing that, in a better time hopefully soon, we could actually advocate for, in the way that we talk about D.C. or Puerto Rico becoming a state. Seems a bit crazy to talk about it, but why not?
I sure do know Dems Abroad! They are super active! I vote in PA and the state is making it harder and harder but I still go through the steps. I agree, we should all be advocating for more as a collective abroad !
Regarding resistance or acceptance of others' ideas (and values), I suspect as one of your respondents said that-- if it's true-- it's only a "subset" and it's likely to be only a subset of that's subset's ideas that they resist. Justices on the Supreme Court have rejec ted the idea that they should accept international law or legal precedent from other countries. But what American ideals and thinking do not have their beginnings in other countries? The ideals of equality arose in Greece and the Middle East with democratic Athens and the prophets of Judeo-Christianity-Islam, the belief in property rights and power and hierarchy can be traced to (I think) Roman Law and certainly the caste system of Hinduism. We are all repositories of those from whom we learned, back to Adam and Eve. Not to mention, dare I say it-- receiving our human consciousness and conscience from the Mystery people often call God. So if there is resistance to "foreign" ideas, it has to be at the most superficial level. However, you have apparently been so disheartened by the idea that Americans do resist ideas from abroad, I wonder if you might share a couple of examples that concern you?
I can’t speak for Lindsey but Universal Healthcare is a big one! Social safety net, privacy laws, worker’s rights, corporate regulations, collectivism … not the ideas themselves, but the extent and seriousness to which other countries implement them compared to us.
There is no doubt that the U.S. could do better. Unfortunately its modern government has gone beyond simply recognizing that people are selfish and therefore need government to temper their excesses through law. That is the point of James Madison’s famous adage that if men were angels, government would be unnecessary. Today’s U.S. government has decided that rather than curbing people’s excesses, its purpose should be not only to permit them but to nurture them, all the while claiming to do so in the name of freedom. It nurtures the worst of human passions-- anger, hatred, greed, selfishness-- and denies the best-- compassion, unselfishness and love. Unfortunately again, it indulges the worst among the rich and powerful-- communicating to all that the rich deserve their corrjpting pleasures and that the poor deserve to be their victims and playthings. Their attitude toward those without power was best expressed by the villain played by Eli Wallach in the original “The Magnificent Seven”: “If God did not want them (i.e. the poor and powerless) to be sheared, He would not have made them sheep.”
Well put - and you are certainly not "ineloquent"! Thank you for the reminder about The Magnificent Seven (the movie, not the stocks) and one of my favorite actors. I will make it a point to watch that movie again, and very soon!
As an immigrant beginning in the late 60’s, becoming a U.S. citizen, to then becoming an emigrant in 2015 and an expat living abroad, this conversation between Anand and Lindsay is extremely poignant and all to rare to hear.
The question of whether other countries should receive American asylum seekers is a stunning one! I left America during what I thought were some of its best years in terms of governance. When trump was elected everybody asked me “How did you know?” But I didn’t. I left America because I wanted to experience living elsewhere and I don’t regret that decision.
What Lindsay says at the end of the conversation is my wish too for Americans and America: Experience, by any means possible, some extended time abroad AND participate in America’s future.
Perhaps one may gain a wider perspective regarding one’s own capacity to participate which undoubtedly creates a better future for all everywhere.
Thank you, Deborah! I’d love to know where you have landed!
In San Miguel de Allende in Mexico!
Very colorful, diverse, safe and enjoyable community - with a rising expat community especially since Covid. Lots of West Coast fire refugees. Too much wealth pouring in and sadly changing the landscape (for profit less for residency) in a very short time. Mostly, our local government’s doing by bending too many rules on height restrictions.
I am originally a New Zealander, raised in Beirut, educated in the UK and created an entrepreneurial life in the U.S. Learning Spanish, in my 60’s for the first time and participating in local community projects makes my experience all the more interesting. None of our children live in Mexico although they have non-U.S partners. One of them, struggling to make enough to live on in NY, moved to Japan.
We find meeting spots around the world. So the trend continues. If we spend our last dime exploring more of the world, we’re happy!
Thanks for your insight and raising questions and thoughts on many Americans minds.
Come visit!!
WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS!...we who are not indigenous to this land, specially we arrogant Anglo white folk and specially the worst of the white men who are on top and more terrified than ever, of we women ~
I left.
Pretty much everyone in my circle are looking for another passport.
I know I'm late coming to this video, so probably no one will see this. You mention going abroad to France, Germany, Scandinavia etc, but no mention of Canada, which is right next door, speaks English (mostly) and has a similar lifestyle, but with a different outlook and no guns. The Carney government has opened up immigration possibilities to anyone who has Canadian ancestors, as far back as one can prove. Tod Maffin, a man from Nanaimo BC, has responded to this crisis in the US by inviting Americans over to his community to visit, and by putting an emphasis on health care workers who would like to live here. He has created a whole "infusion" network across the country to attract healthcare workers. Why would Americans not think of Canada first?
On the same day I listened to your discussion here of a Trump-induced diaspora of sorts, FB sent me this terrific clip about the way the algorithms can feed our false assumptions about immigration/emigration. https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1GoNGHBwZ6/
Needless to say, I sought out David Olusoga's full speech, which is wonderfully illuminating!
https://www.living-knowledge-network.co.uk/library/david-olusoga-talks-to-kirsty-lang
Would LOVE to see the two of you in conversation!!!!!!
One person who left America because of the very conservative era of the 1920s was William L. Shirer who wrote the classic The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He came back after World War II and promptly got red baited. Or the more things changed in his absence, the more they remained the same. The conservatives he fled from in the 1920s, were waiting for him!!
So many confederates left the US for Brazil after losing the civil war that they created a significant diaspora community in Southern Brazil.
I woulda coulda, if it were not for my being older, older enough to want the embrace of my kids and their families. One child works in the field of healthcare with transgender youth. She is a fierce activist, and for the time being, her work is still viable. They live amongst truly friendly neighbors with a wonderful elementary school. The other child-adult is in academia, where it is a very different story. So that trajectory isn't clear.
We owned a house near Lucca in Italy for 20 years, and we reluctantly sold it last year, not wanting to wait till we were too frail and my husband generously not wanting our kids to have that burden, since although it is idyllic, it was a little too removed for our children's taste.
If I could, I would. In Europe, TRUMP IS EVERYWHERE, BUT YOU DON'T TASTE IT, YOU DON'T BREATHE IN ITS TOXICITY, LIKE HERE. We're going to Norway and then to Italy very soon, and we may not want to come back. We had impulsive beginnings, so who knows now? We also have citizenship, a beautiful thing.
I write, and I hope some of you will look at my book, Vulnerability Protected: Visions of a Dancing Mind. I see some therapy patients whom I could see from anywhere.
I can feel the longing of being away from where the headlines puncture potential sanity and ease. I choose sparingly; often, it is just too much and just too toxic.
I can so see and feel the visceral necessity of leaving here. I just don't know that we can. You know, our doctors are here.
Love this interview, Anand. I'm not at all surprised that women ages 15-44 are the most disillusioned. I was a provider in women's health care for a big chunk of my career and I'm deeply disturbed by the astoundingly grotesque level of both racism and misogyny in the US. I think the point was well made that this far right wing "anti-other" is indeed a global phenomenon so, whether we leave or stay, the fight will have to continue.
Interesting topic; heard a report on NPR the other day about a woman in the Netherlands running a business called “Get the F**k Out” -assisting US citizens who want to relocate ….and not only wealthy people.