We talk to Simon Baron-Cohen, the pioneering scholar of autism, about how the spectrum is rewiring the world, Elon Musk and Silicon Valley, and the fight for greater empathy and inclusion for all
This was fascinating. I have a 17 year old autistic son. He’s a great kid. We live in NYC & they have an excellent program called ASD Nest and b/c of this, he has thrived. He is also a total empath.
I find Elon Musk- having self diagnosed- does a great disservice to those who do have an actual diagnosis.
No one should have the takeaway that Musk is somehow emblematic of Autistic people. He takes a lot of drugs and seems to be at his core- a jerk. And maybe that’s exactly what he is.
Please don’t think that being a jerk is somehow built in to being Autistic. Let Musk get a real diagnosis before we hold him up as an example of a world building Autistic person in power.
Yes, as was mentioned in the video, some people just self-diagnose themselves as autistic and really aren't. But Musk does seem like the person who takes a toaster apart and then walks away leaving the pieces on the floor.
Anand, please interview someone who is actually autistic, and has lived experience, as well as who can provide a disability justice lens to this conversation. There are so many assumptions built into this discussion that, at best, make it much more narrow than it could/should be, and at worst are quite ableist.
Many autistic people are deeply empathetic, some to the point of it being disabling, because of how sensitive they are. I’m also stunned that this expert completely neglected the sensory aspect of autism, which in many autistic people can be one of the most disabling aspects.
And please note that “Asperger’s” is named after the Nazi doctor who determined which autistic kids had enough traits deemed of value to the regime to be spared, and as such is not a term that the autism community uses anymore.
Finally, if we’re talking about autistic people impacting society in disproportionate ways, let’s remember Albert Einstein, who had numerous autistic traits including never wearing socks, and who had politics pretty much opposite of the current oligarchs.
Agreed. While SBC is a noted autism scholar, his views on self-diagnosis minimize the barriers to accessing formal diagnosis. Adults seeking diagnosis, particularly women, cannot afford assessment since most insurance does not cover it. The average cost is $1,000-$2,000 and up. Even if you have insurance, most institutional assessments are geared towards children. Finding a practitioner who specializes in adults can be difficult as well. Self-diagnosis is legitimate. I am late-diagnosed and I find the notion of folks labeling themselves willy-nilly offensive.
It would be good to have someone who is more specifically aware of the personalities in question. He’s clearly intelligent and capable, but is focused elsewhere in responding to your inquiries.
Whether or not Elon Musk has been officially diagnosed with Asperger's Disorder might well be less important than the fact that he is under some sort of pharmacological treatment for depression, according to he himself. And those manic, supercharged, furious and similar episodes as well as perhaps grandiose delusions like it's high time we started planning to colonize Mars are suggestive of manic depression (a bipolar mood disorder) and/or a drug abuse disorder (his Rx ketamine is a drug of abuse, potentially) both of which cause unnatural 'highs' with associated emotional dysregulation as well as impaired judgment and depressive episodes. As I've said several times when people become overly fixated on a diagnosis for either him or Trump, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's most likely a duck." Would any one of us leave this guy a key to our house so he could water a plant when we were on vacation?
Thank you so very much for this overdue conversation - as someone who has both followed & personally & professionally benefitted in numerous ways from the work of both you & Simon Baron Cohen, this important convo could be a dream come true... but... I experienced a few significant frustrations... I, as an individual, happen to be in a weirdly unique position in relation to the topic of discussion. I am a US-based clinical psychotherapist, and I also have the personal lifetime experience of years-ago exiting (very fortunately) a highly pathological family constellation involving international oligarchs (publicly documented money, power, & ICIJ-documented tax fraud, plus intensely controlling & abusive "authoritarian" interpersonal dynamics). My family of origin also has members who are impacted by a heritable, identifiable genetic disorder where autism & "autistic features" are present. With all of the above said, I am sorry that Dr. Baron Cohen's first book, "The Science of Evil: On Empathy & the Origins of Cruelty" from 2011 was not mentioned - reading it marked the beginning of my personal evolution of understanding of psychopathy. Autism is indeed both neuro-diverse and neuro-divergent, but I can personally attest that once the high-net-worth-family factor is mixed in, I do not believe the results are appropriate or even especially relevant to the more general population of people with autism. I'm sure we all already know that the privileges of "really inventive" ultra-rich kids like Elon & Bill Gates do not lead to the same as the prospects of an autistic kid who grew up in the Red Hook housing complex, even if that kid was able to attend Thomas Jefferson High School. Plus the high-net-worth enabling, the learned & provided virtue-masking, and the inter-generationally conferred sociopathy that would feature largely for many-if-not-most of the network state-fantasizing broligarchs is dramatically divergent from the reality of most people with autism. Anyhoo, that's a few thoughts - I do hope that this conversation can continue and evolve - fast!! Thanks again for all you do!
What kind of world is autism trying to remake? Does humanity want to follow Musk on his journey to authoritarianism? A world where empathy and compassion don’t exist. Musk and POTUS want to define reality for us and destroy those who don’t agree with them.
Musk's lack of empathy is what is the most damaging aspect of his DOGE. He has no concept how his cuts impact the well being of the people who are losing their jobs, losing services provided by the agencies that are being shuttered and the psychological ramifications of the sudden changes.
Best insight, “empathy is the glue that holds societies (and families, neighbors, communities) together”. I have always thought that science should prioritize creating an empathy pill to slip to the sociopaths (musk’s real issue, not autism) and bullies we could solve multiple problems at once. Canada has wonderful programs in its schools to teach empathy.
Sigh. I'm autistic. I did fantastic as a rape crisis counselor but had to stop because my overflowing empathy. Musk's autism isn't the cause of his rampage on our government. Why examine this and not his malignant narcissism? Plenty of autistic people have empathy. It's not "systematizers vs empathizers." What a frustrating conversation to hear.
Anand, I would like to suggest a fee structure that might work to encourage more subscribers. Just a suggestion. Make the fee range from zero $s/ mo, or $3 /mo, or $5, or 7, or 9 or 10. Whatever one is comfortable paying. This way you might get more subscribers and possibly a higher average paid fee. Just a thought motivated by my appreciation for what you do and my wanting you to have even more subscribers.
Good idea. As a single senior needing Social Security to help pay my living expenses, if that is cut I’ll have to stop paying for this subscription as well as Ruth Ben-Ghiat’s and one other. These are all very valuable to keep us informed and connected during these turbulent times. But, many of us on SS may be moments away from having to make difficult decisions about how to survive.
I wonder Has the researcher or Anand listened to The Telepathy Tapes podcast? It’s about non speaking autistic kids and adults who have extraordinary abilities to communicate telepathically, and very high cognitive intelligence, all seem to have lots of empathy.
Look at what Devon Price has to say about the Telepathy Tapes. Abusive, forced, manufactured. I wouldn't recommend it. Nor do I think disabled people need to have magical qualities to have their lives viewed as worthwhile or valid.
Thank you for this enlightening interview. Empathy is the glue and this needs to be taught in school along with critical thinking. Students need to learn that social media is a tool and understand how engagement — positive and negative impacts others. We can always learn from history to look for patterns so we don’t repeat them.
Sam Ray, a Substack writer, has some interesting info on Countering Narcissistic personalities which to me read spot on regarding Trump and Musk. Just an FYI if you want to dig deeper.
Hands down, this is an interview that could change the tone of our political conversations...and the content. Thank you for being such a good listener and asking that followup question about "if, then."
Yes! I agree training in empathy starting at a very early age is key to a wholesome and inclusive society but it will take time. What I wanted to know is what if a non-empathetic leader (POTUS) gives unlimited power to a very high functioning neurodivergent “special employee” (Musk) to make the federal government systems efficient? His “condition” has characteristics of no empathy or foresight or what or how any of these department work nor does he collaborate with those who do. He assembles a “team of DOGE engineers” with similar characteristics to accomplish the mission of dismantling the government. Someone like that does not take social cues and work well with others or feel others pain. Is he even capable of caring? How do you work with someone like Musk to get him to understand that his actions are causing suffering and death. He makes a perfect hatchet or chainsaw man for a cowardly POTUS drunk on power. Musk only takes orders from benefactor. Knowing Trump, if they ever get held accountable, he’ll blame Musk who will blame it on Aspergers Syndrome.
This was fascinating. I have a 17 year old autistic son. He’s a great kid. We live in NYC & they have an excellent program called ASD Nest and b/c of this, he has thrived. He is also a total empath.
I find Elon Musk- having self diagnosed- does a great disservice to those who do have an actual diagnosis.
No one should have the takeaway that Musk is somehow emblematic of Autistic people. He takes a lot of drugs and seems to be at his core- a jerk. And maybe that’s exactly what he is.
Please don’t think that being a jerk is somehow built in to being Autistic. Let Musk get a real diagnosis before we hold him up as an example of a world building Autistic person in power.
Yes, as was mentioned in the video, some people just self-diagnose themselves as autistic and really aren't. But Musk does seem like the person who takes a toaster apart and then walks away leaving the pieces on the floor.
Anand, please interview someone who is actually autistic, and has lived experience, as well as who can provide a disability justice lens to this conversation. There are so many assumptions built into this discussion that, at best, make it much more narrow than it could/should be, and at worst are quite ableist.
Many autistic people are deeply empathetic, some to the point of it being disabling, because of how sensitive they are. I’m also stunned that this expert completely neglected the sensory aspect of autism, which in many autistic people can be one of the most disabling aspects.
And please note that “Asperger’s” is named after the Nazi doctor who determined which autistic kids had enough traits deemed of value to the regime to be spared, and as such is not a term that the autism community uses anymore.
Finally, if we’re talking about autistic people impacting society in disproportionate ways, let’s remember Albert Einstein, who had numerous autistic traits including never wearing socks, and who had politics pretty much opposite of the current oligarchs.
Agreed. While SBC is a noted autism scholar, his views on self-diagnosis minimize the barriers to accessing formal diagnosis. Adults seeking diagnosis, particularly women, cannot afford assessment since most insurance does not cover it. The average cost is $1,000-$2,000 and up. Even if you have insurance, most institutional assessments are geared towards children. Finding a practitioner who specializes in adults can be difficult as well. Self-diagnosis is legitimate. I am late-diagnosed and I find the notion of folks labeling themselves willy-nilly offensive.
I was thinking the same thing. Devon Price, the author of Unmasking Autism, would have been better.
It would be good to have someone who is more specifically aware of the personalities in question. He’s clearly intelligent and capable, but is focused elsewhere in responding to your inquiries.
Whether or not Elon Musk has been officially diagnosed with Asperger's Disorder might well be less important than the fact that he is under some sort of pharmacological treatment for depression, according to he himself. And those manic, supercharged, furious and similar episodes as well as perhaps grandiose delusions like it's high time we started planning to colonize Mars are suggestive of manic depression (a bipolar mood disorder) and/or a drug abuse disorder (his Rx ketamine is a drug of abuse, potentially) both of which cause unnatural 'highs' with associated emotional dysregulation as well as impaired judgment and depressive episodes. As I've said several times when people become overly fixated on a diagnosis for either him or Trump, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's most likely a duck." Would any one of us leave this guy a key to our house so he could water a plant when we were on vacation?
Thank you so very much for this overdue conversation - as someone who has both followed & personally & professionally benefitted in numerous ways from the work of both you & Simon Baron Cohen, this important convo could be a dream come true... but... I experienced a few significant frustrations... I, as an individual, happen to be in a weirdly unique position in relation to the topic of discussion. I am a US-based clinical psychotherapist, and I also have the personal lifetime experience of years-ago exiting (very fortunately) a highly pathological family constellation involving international oligarchs (publicly documented money, power, & ICIJ-documented tax fraud, plus intensely controlling & abusive "authoritarian" interpersonal dynamics). My family of origin also has members who are impacted by a heritable, identifiable genetic disorder where autism & "autistic features" are present. With all of the above said, I am sorry that Dr. Baron Cohen's first book, "The Science of Evil: On Empathy & the Origins of Cruelty" from 2011 was not mentioned - reading it marked the beginning of my personal evolution of understanding of psychopathy. Autism is indeed both neuro-diverse and neuro-divergent, but I can personally attest that once the high-net-worth-family factor is mixed in, I do not believe the results are appropriate or even especially relevant to the more general population of people with autism. I'm sure we all already know that the privileges of "really inventive" ultra-rich kids like Elon & Bill Gates do not lead to the same as the prospects of an autistic kid who grew up in the Red Hook housing complex, even if that kid was able to attend Thomas Jefferson High School. Plus the high-net-worth enabling, the learned & provided virtue-masking, and the inter-generationally conferred sociopathy that would feature largely for many-if-not-most of the network state-fantasizing broligarchs is dramatically divergent from the reality of most people with autism. Anyhoo, that's a few thoughts - I do hope that this conversation can continue and evolve - fast!! Thanks again for all you do!
Is this Mary Trump, by chance?!?
It’s being used to justify horrible behavior and a lack of empathy. No pass for the illegal republican administration guy. Nope.
I guess the researcher didn’t read Winners Take All if he thinks Gates’ philanthropy is motivated by a charitable impulse.
What kind of world is autism trying to remake? Does humanity want to follow Musk on his journey to authoritarianism? A world where empathy and compassion don’t exist. Musk and POTUS want to define reality for us and destroy those who don’t agree with them.
Musk's lack of empathy is what is the most damaging aspect of his DOGE. He has no concept how his cuts impact the well being of the people who are losing their jobs, losing services provided by the agencies that are being shuttered and the psychological ramifications of the sudden changes.
Best insight, “empathy is the glue that holds societies (and families, neighbors, communities) together”. I have always thought that science should prioritize creating an empathy pill to slip to the sociopaths (musk’s real issue, not autism) and bullies we could solve multiple problems at once. Canada has wonderful programs in its schools to teach empathy.
Sigh. I'm autistic. I did fantastic as a rape crisis counselor but had to stop because my overflowing empathy. Musk's autism isn't the cause of his rampage on our government. Why examine this and not his malignant narcissism? Plenty of autistic people have empathy. It's not "systematizers vs empathizers." What a frustrating conversation to hear.
Anand, I would like to suggest a fee structure that might work to encourage more subscribers. Just a suggestion. Make the fee range from zero $s/ mo, or $3 /mo, or $5, or 7, or 9 or 10. Whatever one is comfortable paying. This way you might get more subscribers and possibly a higher average paid fee. Just a thought motivated by my appreciation for what you do and my wanting you to have even more subscribers.
Good idea. As a single senior needing Social Security to help pay my living expenses, if that is cut I’ll have to stop paying for this subscription as well as Ruth Ben-Ghiat’s and one other. These are all very valuable to keep us informed and connected during these turbulent times. But, many of us on SS may be moments away from having to make difficult decisions about how to survive.
I wonder Has the researcher or Anand listened to The Telepathy Tapes podcast? It’s about non speaking autistic kids and adults who have extraordinary abilities to communicate telepathically, and very high cognitive intelligence, all seem to have lots of empathy.
Look at what Devon Price has to say about the Telepathy Tapes. Abusive, forced, manufactured. I wouldn't recommend it. Nor do I think disabled people need to have magical qualities to have their lives viewed as worthwhile or valid.
I was just thinking about that. We need to listen to some of those autistic/non-speaking individuals.
Thank you for this enlightening interview. Empathy is the glue and this needs to be taught in school along with critical thinking. Students need to learn that social media is a tool and understand how engagement — positive and negative impacts others. We can always learn from history to look for patterns so we don’t repeat them.
Sam Ray, a Substack writer, has some interesting info on Countering Narcissistic personalities which to me read spot on regarding Trump and Musk. Just an FYI if you want to dig deeper.
Hands down, this is an interview that could change the tone of our political conversations...and the content. Thank you for being such a good listener and asking that followup question about "if, then."
Yes! I agree training in empathy starting at a very early age is key to a wholesome and inclusive society but it will take time. What I wanted to know is what if a non-empathetic leader (POTUS) gives unlimited power to a very high functioning neurodivergent “special employee” (Musk) to make the federal government systems efficient? His “condition” has characteristics of no empathy or foresight or what or how any of these department work nor does he collaborate with those who do. He assembles a “team of DOGE engineers” with similar characteristics to accomplish the mission of dismantling the government. Someone like that does not take social cues and work well with others or feel others pain. Is he even capable of caring? How do you work with someone like Musk to get him to understand that his actions are causing suffering and death. He makes a perfect hatchet or chainsaw man for a cowardly POTUS drunk on power. Musk only takes orders from benefactor. Knowing Trump, if they ever get held accountable, he’ll blame Musk who will blame it on Aspergers Syndrome.