Trump is gutting American democracy, and most people seem either not to know or not to care. What can move them? We asked political strategist Anat Shenker-Osorio
To make the conundrum worse, we aren't really aiming for a return to "status quo democracy" but rather we're aiming for a democracy cleansed of that which fostered the pending fascism.
This is pretty crucial. We have a good Italian friend, who is wise and informed. She told us she doesn't like democracy. What? We asked. Well, she said, what about all those who didn't cast the winning vote? Why make winning the gold standard? Plus, as you may be implying, we have to learn to share, not only to win or lose.
I came of age during the Vietnam War and was active in protests against the war. The parallels I see are in how long it took to move the needle and how it really was the change of opinion by the masses of citizens that ended the war and not any leader per se. I think the white majority couldn’t come around until they saw their sons and daughters affected. My father, the proud WWII vet was repulsed and ashamed when I evaded the draft and yet when my beloved cousin came home in a coffin it really got to him, so much so that he was heard to say that he’d move the family to Canada before he let my younger brother, approaching draft age, be drafted. It hurt to hear at the time, but I understand the evolution in people’s thinking that is sometimes required.
Not sure if you read through the notes on your substack, but I was struck by your query below in the talk with Anat (one of my ABSOLUTE badass heroes!):
"What's the evidence or signs that it's working? Because I think that people need to hear that."
I've actually been keeping a spreadsheet of opposition wins, as I see them/hear about them. I've broken the wins into categories: elections, judicial, etc. but also, specifically into examples of nonviolent civic resistance.
Perhaps you've heard of the Erica Chenoweth and Maria J. Stephens work? They would be very much worth interviewing.
It's about the 3.5% rule of thumb and how in 300+ cases examined since 1900, mass defiance does in fact outperform violent counterinsurgencies when it comes to defeating authoritarian takeovers or backsliding in existing democracies.
So in my spreadsheet, I've been tracking wins that are examples of actions that undermine what are called the "pillars of support."
1) protest & persuasion
2) noncooperation (boycotts, etc.) and
3) building alternatives (community mobilization for support and protection)
In a nutshell, authoritarians follow the same, tired playbook and Yam Tits TACO is certainly no different. But, what most of us don't know is that there is also a set of established counteroffensive plays that we, as members of a democracy, can deploy and which—when sustained and adopted by a broad and large enough coalition—can topple regimes.
At a macro level, it's worth noting a few key momentum indicators:
Did you know there are literally three times (3X) as many protests now as in 2017, even if the media doesn't cover it (because they've abdicated their role as the press holding power accountable to being stenographers for the powerful)?
Or, that it's not just that Caitlin Drey swung her IA district by 21 points since the Presidential election in 2024, but that in the 38(!) special elections since January 1, 2025, voters have been voting for Dems (in red, blue and purple districts) by a margin of 15.7pts over November? In comparison to this same time in 2017, the overperformance that preceded the 40-seat blue wave of 2018 was about 12 pts.
Also, did you know that boycotts have effectively gutted the value of both Tesla and Target, and are now laser focused on bringing down Avelo Airlines (the airline of choice for ICE's criminal abductions, trafficking and false imprisonment of our neighbors in concentration camps)?
At the micro level, here's one case in point of how people, ordinary, everyday Americans are standing up, speaking out and fighting back against this racist, nativist, sexist, and LGBTQ-hating regime's attacks on freedoms, families and futures:
The indictment rate for grand juries is typically 99% (there's a reason "Grand Juries could indict a ham sandwich" is a saying).
However, in the regime's case, for the DOJ attorney that's brought felony criminal charges against peaceful ICE protesters that were arrested in LA—the indictment rate has been 18%!!!
That is huge; because it shows how the 'average' person, politically engaged or not, is doing the right thing.
The same thing is happening in D.C. (including for Sean Charles Dunn, AKA sandwich thrower).
for my part I am standing by myself in protest at the center intersection of my small town every morning for 3 hours; I keep changing my sign to engage different people
We do actually need a leader. In addition to all the other things people can do in the meantime. Trump galvanized the MAGA right. He is their leader. I keep hearing nobody is going to rescue us. But somebody will need to lead us. Because that force is needed to make people feel less fearful and coalesce into big actions. In the meantime more and more people are doing what they can until that galvanizing force emerges. Bridge brigades and street corner protests are popping up more and more in my city. You can feel things percolating. They don’t make the news or the head counts but they are there. We are trying to coordinate bridge brigades up and down a major highway so that we show up on the same day and time with messaging that dovetails. Burma shave for the 21st C of sorts. Imagine that going on throughout the country. Anat: “sell that there is a way out of this.” In 4-6 words for someone driving by at 60 mph. Bridge brigadiers across the US would be grateful for your input on this. Perhaps a future A&A conversation.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. If I had to boil down to one message it would Free America. That’s as short as it can get and packs in lots of meaning. A bit longer and less opaque: Free America from this regime. Huge admirer of the Visibility Brigades.
As far as a leader, I think there already are many just not the singular figure we’re accustomed to thinking of as leader. Arguably, all of our great movements - Civil Rights, Women’s Suffrage, abolition, French Revolution, fall of Milosevic, end of Nazis, just to name a random few - were leader-ful movements. Yes figures like MLK are cast in retelling as singular heroes but that is a simplification.
This is such a great point, Anat — i do think we need leaderful movements rather than simply leaders. Of course MLK did not succeed on his own — his success (and occasional failure) is directly a result of the full time year-round decades-long mobilization work done by SNCC and other groups AND high-level strategic thinking about when and how to engage with political leaders and the press and the public. Aside from what’s going on here in NYC with the incredible Zohran Mamdani campaign run by the DSA, I don’t see that magical combo — leadership, strategy, organization and coalition building — at work today. As important as all these protests are (No Kings, Bridge Brigades etc), I fear they will not do more than restore the horribly flawed status quo AT BEST unless they coalesce around an actual theory of how their current work will lead to better outcomes for the masses of people betrayed by both parties for the past 30 years. I’d love you and Anand to discuss this— you both seem rightly critical of the Democratic establishment but haven’t articulated a path away from, through, or around them toward something better. Why not? I think that’s what people really want. Not just isolated AOCs and Bernies but a way to channel mass support for what they and others like them stand for.
She's so right about message and being meaningful. As much as I liked Harris, her message was made less legit when she said there was no difference between Biden and herself. We wanted to know her point of view, what makes Kamala Kamala in terms of political vision. Look at Bernie. He never changes, he always speaks his truth regardless of its popularity. That is why so many of us believe in him and respect him. Whether Moderate or Progressive, Democrats need to stay true to their own values, not polls.
Advertisers know this: we are all capable of getting used to what is fed to us, and getting numbed to the same.
People, as you are implying with your input, about our needing social help as opposed to only individual help, need support to function well enough to care and to be informed.
As a therapist, try this on: There is FASCISM FROM WITHIN. WHEN WE DEAL WITH INTERNAL STRICTNESS, PAST TRAUMA, VOICES OF COMPETITION AND PERFECTIONISM, WE are already living in an atmosphere of humiliation and shame.
America is a puritanical country with a racist history and present. We are in too much competition with each other, for viewers (even on Substack), and on Instagram for popularity. This is quite toxic, so that Fascism with the capital F that it deserves, may seem like just one more thing that is annoying.
As a therapist and as someone with my share of personal trauma, I can say that from what I see there are gobs of people who feel enslaved by the above. We have to be able to taste freedom to be scared of its absence or actually to miss it. People are too exhausted, not the billionaires but the people who feel easily inadequate, exhausted by having to live up to standards that are perfectionistic, misguided, and mean.
Yes Yes, Anand. I've been asking since early April, "Is it time to go to the streets and bridges and just shut it all down?" And I universally so far, get ignored.
Two cares? In our city we have 4-5 groups of protesters that meet every week and have done this every week since March 2025. We care and the people that drive by give us plenty of support and we are growing in numbers. In addition we have larger groups meeting every month in support of immigrants, labor and so on.
I like the partnership/combination of you two. I'd like to see Anat paint her walls a deep saturated color, like Anand's. She does not seem like a "beige" person. Great convo! Love the vintage!
The water isn't hot enuf yet; pity the poor frog. That's a problem with human nature, unless we are burned at the stove, we are dubious. I fear things will become a lot worse before a collective uprising threatens the new fascism and someone like FDR is brought in to save the system. But 2025 is not like 1933: All the branches of government have been compromised and so has the electoral system. SCOTUS and many other courts are festooned with MAGA sympathizers. The accelerating merger of government and business interests will make egalitarian policy, in either sector, next to impossible to achieve. I believe the rot has gone beyond the economic meltdown in the 1930s. This is a new axial age. I fear we will have to wait (and endure) the self-destruction of our fascist state. That said, never say never. We must find ways to hasten the MAGA state's implosion.
Anand, do you know any organizers? Do you know how hard and slow it is to do relational organizing? How hard it is for regular people with day jobs to pull together a No Kings protest? The coalition building, conversations, planning, finding more volunteers, angsting over the safety of participants when the numbers are large.... Many people are working very hard, helping us build the muscles to do the big things. As someone who is making this my "job" now, I feel frustrated hearing you complain it's not enough!
I hope you will take the One Million Rising training through Indivisible/No Kings, and gather some friends to take action together. And I hope you'll have some bona fide organizers on your show to paint a more realistic picture of how arduous this work is. We absolutely need to pull the armchair quarterbacks out of their recliners and into the work! And it doesn't happen by itself:)
Thanks to you and ASO for the conversations and how you both help clarify my thinking!
I'm flummoxed, and I look in the mirror when I say this. I go to rallies, whenever one happens in my vicinity. I talk to people about what's going on and we gnash our teeth. What I wonder is (and I lamely apologize for wondering) is "What would robust protest BE, for me?" I mean, people are gathering, they ARE protesting. So am I. But that's not enough. So, what else should I do? I do recognize that this is not a pro-democracy "movement" I'm engaging in. I remember the 1960s (very vaguely) and marching in my hometown of St. Louis with my parents when I was wee. There's nothing like that now. How do I help to spark that, beyond what I'm doing?
To make the conundrum worse, we aren't really aiming for a return to "status quo democracy" but rather we're aiming for a democracy cleansed of that which fostered the pending fascism.
This is pretty crucial. We have a good Italian friend, who is wise and informed. She told us she doesn't like democracy. What? We asked. Well, she said, what about all those who didn't cast the winning vote? Why make winning the gold standard? Plus, as you may be implying, we have to learn to share, not only to win or lose.
I came of age during the Vietnam War and was active in protests against the war. The parallels I see are in how long it took to move the needle and how it really was the change of opinion by the masses of citizens that ended the war and not any leader per se. I think the white majority couldn’t come around until they saw their sons and daughters affected. My father, the proud WWII vet was repulsed and ashamed when I evaded the draft and yet when my beloved cousin came home in a coffin it really got to him, so much so that he was heard to say that he’d move the family to Canada before he let my younger brother, approaching draft age, be drafted. It hurt to hear at the time, but I understand the evolution in people’s thinking that is sometimes required.
Hi Anand,
Not sure if you read through the notes on your substack, but I was struck by your query below in the talk with Anat (one of my ABSOLUTE badass heroes!):
"What's the evidence or signs that it's working? Because I think that people need to hear that."
I've actually been keeping a spreadsheet of opposition wins, as I see them/hear about them. I've broken the wins into categories: elections, judicial, etc. but also, specifically into examples of nonviolent civic resistance.
Perhaps you've heard of the Erica Chenoweth and Maria J. Stephens work? They would be very much worth interviewing.
https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/the-future-of-nonviolent-resistance-2/
It's about the 3.5% rule of thumb and how in 300+ cases examined since 1900, mass defiance does in fact outperform violent counterinsurgencies when it comes to defeating authoritarian takeovers or backsliding in existing democracies.
So in my spreadsheet, I've been tracking wins that are examples of actions that undermine what are called the "pillars of support."
1) protest & persuasion
2) noncooperation (boycotts, etc.) and
3) building alternatives (community mobilization for support and protection)
In a nutshell, authoritarians follow the same, tired playbook and Yam Tits TACO is certainly no different. But, what most of us don't know is that there is also a set of established counteroffensive plays that we, as members of a democracy, can deploy and which—when sustained and adopted by a broad and large enough coalition—can topple regimes.
At a macro level, it's worth noting a few key momentum indicators:
Did you know there are literally three times (3X) as many protests now as in 2017, even if the media doesn't cover it (because they've abdicated their role as the press holding power accountable to being stenographers for the powerful)?
Source:
https://wagingnonviolence.org/2025/06/american-spring-nonviolent-protest-accelerating/
Or, that it's not just that Caitlin Drey swung her IA district by 21 points since the Presidential election in 2024, but that in the 38(!) special elections since January 1, 2025, voters have been voting for Dems (in red, blue and purple districts) by a margin of 15.7pts over November? In comparison to this same time in 2017, the overperformance that preceded the 40-seat blue wave of 2018 was about 12 pts.
Source:
https://www.the-downballot.com/p/holy-st-the-biggest-dem-special-election
Also, did you know that boycotts have effectively gutted the value of both Tesla and Target, and are now laser focused on bringing down Avelo Airlines (the airline of choice for ICE's criminal abductions, trafficking and false imprisonment of our neighbors in concentration camps)?
Source:
https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/28/business/things-at-tesla-are-worse-than-they-appear
At the micro level, here's one case in point of how people, ordinary, everyday Americans are standing up, speaking out and fighting back against this racist, nativist, sexist, and LGBTQ-hating regime's attacks on freedoms, families and futures:
The indictment rate for grand juries is typically 99% (there's a reason "Grand Juries could indict a ham sandwich" is a saying).
However, in the regime's case, for the DOJ attorney that's brought felony criminal charges against peaceful ICE protesters that were arrested in LA—the indictment rate has been 18%!!!
That is huge; because it shows how the 'average' person, politically engaged or not, is doing the right thing.
The same thing is happening in D.C. (including for Sean Charles Dunn, AKA sandwich thrower).
Source:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/grand-juries-reject-indictments-amid-trumps-dc-crackdown/ar-AA1LJNL3
The bottom line, wins are happening. The advice I've been following since January 20: tune out the noise, but don't drop the signal...
And I for one, will hold onto these two quotes:
When everyone has just a little bit of courage, no one has to be a hero.
~ Congressmember, Sarah McBride (quoting her dad)
We are living through a revolt against the future. The future will prevail.
~ Author, Anand Giridharadas
for my part I am standing by myself in protest at the center intersection of my small town every morning for 3 hours; I keep changing my sign to engage different people
We do actually need a leader. In addition to all the other things people can do in the meantime. Trump galvanized the MAGA right. He is their leader. I keep hearing nobody is going to rescue us. But somebody will need to lead us. Because that force is needed to make people feel less fearful and coalesce into big actions. In the meantime more and more people are doing what they can until that galvanizing force emerges. Bridge brigades and street corner protests are popping up more and more in my city. You can feel things percolating. They don’t make the news or the head counts but they are there. We are trying to coordinate bridge brigades up and down a major highway so that we show up on the same day and time with messaging that dovetails. Burma shave for the 21st C of sorts. Imagine that going on throughout the country. Anat: “sell that there is a way out of this.” In 4-6 words for someone driving by at 60 mph. Bridge brigadiers across the US would be grateful for your input on this. Perhaps a future A&A conversation.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. If I had to boil down to one message it would Free America. That’s as short as it can get and packs in lots of meaning. A bit longer and less opaque: Free America from this regime. Huge admirer of the Visibility Brigades.
As far as a leader, I think there already are many just not the singular figure we’re accustomed to thinking of as leader. Arguably, all of our great movements - Civil Rights, Women’s Suffrage, abolition, French Revolution, fall of Milosevic, end of Nazis, just to name a random few - were leader-ful movements. Yes figures like MLK are cast in retelling as singular heroes but that is a simplification.
This is such a great point, Anat — i do think we need leaderful movements rather than simply leaders. Of course MLK did not succeed on his own — his success (and occasional failure) is directly a result of the full time year-round decades-long mobilization work done by SNCC and other groups AND high-level strategic thinking about when and how to engage with political leaders and the press and the public. Aside from what’s going on here in NYC with the incredible Zohran Mamdani campaign run by the DSA, I don’t see that magical combo — leadership, strategy, organization and coalition building — at work today. As important as all these protests are (No Kings, Bridge Brigades etc), I fear they will not do more than restore the horribly flawed status quo AT BEST unless they coalesce around an actual theory of how their current work will lead to better outcomes for the masses of people betrayed by both parties for the past 30 years. I’d love you and Anand to discuss this— you both seem rightly critical of the Democratic establishment but haven’t articulated a path away from, through, or around them toward something better. Why not? I think that’s what people really want. Not just isolated AOCs and Bernies but a way to channel mass support for what they and others like them stand for.
Thank you for a response. Very much appreciated.
She's so right about message and being meaningful. As much as I liked Harris, her message was made less legit when she said there was no difference between Biden and herself. We wanted to know her point of view, what makes Kamala Kamala in terms of political vision. Look at Bernie. He never changes, he always speaks his truth regardless of its popularity. That is why so many of us believe in him and respect him. Whether Moderate or Progressive, Democrats need to stay true to their own values, not polls.
Advertisers know this: we are all capable of getting used to what is fed to us, and getting numbed to the same.
People, as you are implying with your input, about our needing social help as opposed to only individual help, need support to function well enough to care and to be informed.
As a therapist, try this on: There is FASCISM FROM WITHIN. WHEN WE DEAL WITH INTERNAL STRICTNESS, PAST TRAUMA, VOICES OF COMPETITION AND PERFECTIONISM, WE are already living in an atmosphere of humiliation and shame.
America is a puritanical country with a racist history and present. We are in too much competition with each other, for viewers (even on Substack), and on Instagram for popularity. This is quite toxic, so that Fascism with the capital F that it deserves, may seem like just one more thing that is annoying.
As a therapist and as someone with my share of personal trauma, I can say that from what I see there are gobs of people who feel enslaved by the above. We have to be able to taste freedom to be scared of its absence or actually to miss it. People are too exhausted, not the billionaires but the people who feel easily inadequate, exhausted by having to live up to standards that are perfectionistic, misguided, and mean.
Can We Talk: Fascism from Within?
This is really important stuff, Carol! Yes, please, let's hear more.
Yes Yes, Anand. I've been asking since early April, "Is it time to go to the streets and bridges and just shut it all down?" And I universally so far, get ignored.
Thanks for the reminder that we need to get up, stand up together in building & sustaining resistance to authoritarianism...& #Vote Blue!
Two cares? In our city we have 4-5 groups of protesters that meet every week and have done this every week since March 2025. We care and the people that drive by give us plenty of support and we are growing in numbers. In addition we have larger groups meeting every month in support of immigrants, labor and so on.
I meant to say Who cares? We care!
My favorite duo
I like the partnership/combination of you two. I'd like to see Anat paint her walls a deep saturated color, like Anand's. She does not seem like a "beige" person. Great convo! Love the vintage!
Next time, I’ll change angles! One wall is purple and the kitchen is turquoise. :)
I knew that…. 😅💪🏽
So how do we convince people that the water in the pot is boiling??
The water isn't hot enuf yet; pity the poor frog. That's a problem with human nature, unless we are burned at the stove, we are dubious. I fear things will become a lot worse before a collective uprising threatens the new fascism and someone like FDR is brought in to save the system. But 2025 is not like 1933: All the branches of government have been compromised and so has the electoral system. SCOTUS and many other courts are festooned with MAGA sympathizers. The accelerating merger of government and business interests will make egalitarian policy, in either sector, next to impossible to achieve. I believe the rot has gone beyond the economic meltdown in the 1930s. This is a new axial age. I fear we will have to wait (and endure) the self-destruction of our fascist state. That said, never say never. We must find ways to hasten the MAGA state's implosion.
Your zoom started with Epstein. I have argued that opposition to Trump should try to get under his skin by saying he really does not care about victims or women (Trump talks about his caring for women). And there is legislation that proves cuts to victims programs. And allows opposition to say Trump does not care about victims. https://open.substack.com/pub/ralphrosenberg/p/democrats-fumble-the-epstein-files?r=9e9e3&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Anand, do you know any organizers? Do you know how hard and slow it is to do relational organizing? How hard it is for regular people with day jobs to pull together a No Kings protest? The coalition building, conversations, planning, finding more volunteers, angsting over the safety of participants when the numbers are large.... Many people are working very hard, helping us build the muscles to do the big things. As someone who is making this my "job" now, I feel frustrated hearing you complain it's not enough!
I hope you will take the One Million Rising training through Indivisible/No Kings, and gather some friends to take action together. And I hope you'll have some bona fide organizers on your show to paint a more realistic picture of how arduous this work is. We absolutely need to pull the armchair quarterbacks out of their recliners and into the work! And it doesn't happen by itself:)
Thanks to you and ASO for the conversations and how you both help clarify my thinking!
I'm flummoxed, and I look in the mirror when I say this. I go to rallies, whenever one happens in my vicinity. I talk to people about what's going on and we gnash our teeth. What I wonder is (and I lamely apologize for wondering) is "What would robust protest BE, for me?" I mean, people are gathering, they ARE protesting. So am I. But that's not enough. So, what else should I do? I do recognize that this is not a pro-democracy "movement" I'm engaging in. I remember the 1960s (very vaguely) and marching in my hometown of St. Louis with my parents when I was wee. There's nothing like that now. How do I help to spark that, beyond what I'm doing?