I’m halfway through listening to Amber T and I have to comment before I go further.
this part of the discussion revolves around teaching men boys how to be good men and boys. If I could find that men and boys were actually interested in listening to me, to their sister, to their girlfriend, to their wives, then maybe I would be try again. But I’m 72and I am tired. I unsuccessfully wore myself out to teach my husband who is now my ex. there is so little interest from the men around me. It’s been that way most of my life.
Ellen you hit the nail on the head. The contempt inherent in sexism simply doesn't allow learning. People won't listen to people they don't fully respect.
How can women be responsible for teaching men not to be sexist when their sexism prevents them from listening to us in the first place? It's a doomed endeavor. Save your energy and live your life.
Such a good question because there's no easy answer. You're absolutely right - it feels so frustrating when you're dealing with someone fired up with a sense of masculine entitlement. But on the other hand, it's not so easy just to ignore misogyny - or misogynists - when women so often end up injured, scarred or dead. We can't just turn away ... go ask permission from the patriarchy to drink our Chardonnay in peace! I don't think Amber is saying we have to sit sexists down and tell them stuff. I think she's saying we have to resist and stand up for ourselves without losing the sense that men do not have to be the enemy - which is a counsel of despair.
I think you're right about about resisting. I wish she was talking about resisting. She was talking about educating.
I think the way women are resisting right now by withdrawing our romantic attention, our labor, the pleasure of our company is making it's mark.
To say women are now responsible for educating people who don't want to learn from us, is me allowing one more opportunity to be dismissed and disregarded. I'd rather not.
I can't tell you how much I disagree with Amber on the role of women to educate men. She is wrong.
In 2020 Black people were so clear that we were tired. How subservient do you want me to be?
As a Black woman, I am being told to take on the burden of being oppressed by racism and sexism and then also to educate for free the people who are oppressing me. I wasn't put on this planet to be your magical negro who brings you free enlightenment at my own psychological expense.
This additional demand of women is sexist and keeps us in constant service to those who refuse to get it.
People go to university to become therapists and DEI trainers and get paid for their work. Charlie Kirk is paid for his work.
Filling this gap is the work of organizations, professionals, influencers, authors, schools, governments, media, non-profits, lobbying groups, people who get paid for their work. It is not the work of oppressed individuals.
I have a life and I am not going to spend my time educating people I don't want to be around.
Amber, if you did not do the work you did the group of women who are coming together as Epstein survivors would never be possible. Thank you. Thanks Anand!
Anand, would love info/perhaps reading recs on talking to sons in the manner of your ymca boys’ camp. I’m raising a 14 year old son amidst feminist older sisters and me, and I can see already his withdrawal when we discuss issues. We need to be more positive. I have been strongly teaching him consent since toddlerhood, using his own body/hugs etc as the example so hopefully we will have no issues there going forward. (He is a good kid!)
You have the coolest friends . . .You are the coolest person, of course you have the coolest friends . . . Thank you for sharing with us! P.S. Have you heard of the work of Kate Manne? She is a feminist philosopher who wrote a book called “Down Girl” that totally frame-shifted my understanding of misogyny. I thought of it so much during this conversation.
It was great to have Amber on here today, Anand! I have loved poetry since I was a child.
Sometimes in my life, I have wanted to be a man- not a boy, not when I was a young girl. I began to realize the power that men hold, the privilege they have, the upper-hand they seem to wield. Several incidents occurred while growing up, when I was definitely the weaker-bodied one and had to rely on intellect and wiles to escape the situations, because I didn't have the physical strength or size to overcome. What happened to me happened at the hand of males- boys, bosses, friends, strangers, each trying to take advantage or control, and take what did not belong to them. How many times had I heard "dumb blonde", "dumb girl", "dumb female, "dumb polak", even from my own father. It didn't matter that I skipped a grade in school, graduated high school at 16 and worked my way to college, graduating at age 20, then onto to even higher degrees. Heck, I even believed in the 70s that women and men could be friends (feminism had apparently NOT reached the ears of many of the males I knew)! Maybe this is one reason I became a teacher, to raise consciousness, to raise awareness, to treat people more equally, eventually learning to teach equitably. Amber is right; if we (principled women and men) don't teach our young men first and well, people like Charlie Kirk or the Heritage Foundation will step in and do it for us.
I want to win this prize: 5 minutes in an alley with Donald Trump to KICK HIS FAT ORANGE ASS, on behalf of the 27 pending sexual assault cases, and any of Epstein’s female victims that he NO DOUBT ‘shared’ with DJT.
Thank you for this wonderful talk, Anand!
I’m halfway through listening to Amber T and I have to comment before I go further.
this part of the discussion revolves around teaching men boys how to be good men and boys. If I could find that men and boys were actually interested in listening to me, to their sister, to their girlfriend, to their wives, then maybe I would be try again. But I’m 72and I am tired. I unsuccessfully wore myself out to teach my husband who is now my ex. there is so little interest from the men around me. It’s been that way most of my life.
Ellen you hit the nail on the head. The contempt inherent in sexism simply doesn't allow learning. People won't listen to people they don't fully respect.
How can women be responsible for teaching men not to be sexist when their sexism prevents them from listening to us in the first place? It's a doomed endeavor. Save your energy and live your life.
Such a good question because there's no easy answer. You're absolutely right - it feels so frustrating when you're dealing with someone fired up with a sense of masculine entitlement. But on the other hand, it's not so easy just to ignore misogyny - or misogynists - when women so often end up injured, scarred or dead. We can't just turn away ... go ask permission from the patriarchy to drink our Chardonnay in peace! I don't think Amber is saying we have to sit sexists down and tell them stuff. I think she's saying we have to resist and stand up for ourselves without losing the sense that men do not have to be the enemy - which is a counsel of despair.
I think you're right about about resisting. I wish she was talking about resisting. She was talking about educating.
I think the way women are resisting right now by withdrawing our romantic attention, our labor, the pleasure of our company is making it's mark.
To say women are now responsible for educating people who don't want to learn from us, is me allowing one more opportunity to be dismissed and disregarded. I'd rather not.
I can't tell you how much I disagree with Amber on the role of women to educate men. She is wrong.
In 2020 Black people were so clear that we were tired. How subservient do you want me to be?
As a Black woman, I am being told to take on the burden of being oppressed by racism and sexism and then also to educate for free the people who are oppressing me. I wasn't put on this planet to be your magical negro who brings you free enlightenment at my own psychological expense.
This additional demand of women is sexist and keeps us in constant service to those who refuse to get it.
People go to university to become therapists and DEI trainers and get paid for their work. Charlie Kirk is paid for his work.
Filling this gap is the work of organizations, professionals, influencers, authors, schools, governments, media, non-profits, lobbying groups, people who get paid for their work. It is not the work of oppressed individuals.
I have a life and I am not going to spend my time educating people I don't want to be around.
Amen sis.
Poet: Sherman Alexie, here on substack too: https://substack.com/@shermanalexie?utm_source=global-search
Joy Harjo: https://www.joyharjo.com/
Rita Dove: https://www.facebook.com/ritadove.poetlaureate/
Amber, if you did not do the work you did the group of women who are coming together as Epstein survivors would never be possible. Thank you. Thanks Anand!
Thanks Penni. Appreciate the note.
There is a great article in the NYT today about what it will take to solve the 'Boy Problem'.
Boy Crisis of 2025, Meet the ‘Boy Problem’ of the 1900s https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/15/opinion/men-boys-crisis-progressive-era.html?unlocked_article_code=1.eU8.NDw-.pUgHT-D1U1we&smid=nytcore-android-share
Bottom line, the problem needs more men (not women) to step up to mentor boys, in the form of civic institutions.
Anand, would love info/perhaps reading recs on talking to sons in the manner of your ymca boys’ camp. I’m raising a 14 year old son amidst feminist older sisters and me, and I can see already his withdrawal when we discuss issues. We need to be more positive. I have been strongly teaching him consent since toddlerhood, using his own body/hugs etc as the example so hopefully we will have no issues there going forward. (He is a good kid!)
I love you guys. I get it.
But honestly, fuck that. I’m so tired of catering to the whining penis holders.
Maybe it’s worth a try. Idk.
You have the coolest friends . . .You are the coolest person, of course you have the coolest friends . . . Thank you for sharing with us! P.S. Have you heard of the work of Kate Manne? She is a feminist philosopher who wrote a book called “Down Girl” that totally frame-shifted my understanding of misogyny. I thought of it so much during this conversation.
It was great to have Amber on here today, Anand! I have loved poetry since I was a child.
Sometimes in my life, I have wanted to be a man- not a boy, not when I was a young girl. I began to realize the power that men hold, the privilege they have, the upper-hand they seem to wield. Several incidents occurred while growing up, when I was definitely the weaker-bodied one and had to rely on intellect and wiles to escape the situations, because I didn't have the physical strength or size to overcome. What happened to me happened at the hand of males- boys, bosses, friends, strangers, each trying to take advantage or control, and take what did not belong to them. How many times had I heard "dumb blonde", "dumb girl", "dumb female, "dumb polak", even from my own father. It didn't matter that I skipped a grade in school, graduated high school at 16 and worked my way to college, graduating at age 20, then onto to even higher degrees. Heck, I even believed in the 70s that women and men could be friends (feminism had apparently NOT reached the ears of many of the males I knew)! Maybe this is one reason I became a teacher, to raise consciousness, to raise awareness, to treat people more equally, eventually learning to teach equitably. Amber is right; if we (principled women and men) don't teach our young men first and well, people like Charlie Kirk or the Heritage Foundation will step in and do it for us.
Wow re: the poem
Agree with Amber 💯 that the enemy is billionaires.
Anand, I respect you immensely. Thank you.
I want to win this prize: 5 minutes in an alley with Donald Trump to KICK HIS FAT ORANGE ASS, on behalf of the 27 pending sexual assault cases, and any of Epstein’s female victims that he NO DOUBT ‘shared’ with DJT.
Wonderful conversation ❤️
I am so with you Kimberly, it's so exhausting.